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::First find equally reliable sources which dispute these quotations. Just [[Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Disputing_the_reliability_of_apparently_good_sources|nitpicking reliable sources is disruptive]]. [[User:Editorkamran|Editorkamran]] ([[User talk:Editorkamran|talk]]) 15:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
::First find equally reliable sources which dispute these quotations. Just [[Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Disputing_the_reliability_of_apparently_good_sources|nitpicking reliable sources is disruptive]]. [[User:Editorkamran|Editorkamran]] ([[User talk:Editorkamran|talk]]) 15:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
:::I clearly stated in this disscussion why this source is not good according to [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:RSUW]]. And on top of that the source doesn't support the statement you try to add to the article. This is all E. Lorenz says about Prabhupada, Hitler and Jews:
:::I clearly stated in this disscussion why this source is not good according to [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:RSUW]]. And on top of that the source doesn't support the statement you try to add to the article. This is all E. Lorenz says about Prabhupada, Hitler and Jews:
<blockquote>''In a monarchy, a king with a prestigious position follows the great deeds
<blockquote>In a monarchy, a king with a prestigious position follows the great deeds
of his forefathers.91
Gradually the democratic government is becoming unfit for the needs of the people, and therefore some parties are trying to elect a dictator. A dic- tatorship is the same as a monarchy, but without a trained leader. Actu- ally people will be happy when a trained leader, whether a monarch or a dictator, takes control of the government and rules the people according to the standard regulations of the authorized scriptures.92
Gradually the democratic government is becoming unfit for the needs of the people, and therefore some parties are trying to elect a dictator. A dic- tatorship is the same as a monarchy, but without a trained leader. Actu- ally people will be happy when a trained leader, whether a monarch or a dictator, takes control of the government and rules the people according to the standard regulations of the authorized scriptures.92
Statements like the last one, in which Bhaktivedanta Swami declares that he fa- vors even dictatorship above democracy, are by no means rare:
Statements like the last one, in which Bhaktivedanta Swami declares that he fa- vors even dictatorship above democracy, are by no means rare:
Line 101: Line 100:
Sometimes he becomes a great hero—just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.98
Sometimes he becomes a great hero—just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.98
Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews. . . . And they were supplying.
Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews. . . . And they were supplying.
[370] part 5. social issues
They want interest money—“Never mind against our country.” There-
They want interest money—“Never mind against our country.” There-
fore Hitler decided, “Kill all the Jews.”99''</blockquote>[[User:Gaura79|Gaura79]] ([[User talk:Gaura79|talk]]) 15:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
fore Hitler decided, “Kill all the Jews.”99</blockquote>[[User:Gaura79|Gaura79]] ([[User talk:Gaura79|talk]]) 15:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:39, 22 April 2023

Former good article nomineeA. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 22, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed

Not svarbanik (sonar) he is kayastha and his father name gaur mohan Dey he is kayastha and Swami Shila prabhupada is belonging to kayastha caste he is born in Kulin Kayastha family of Bengal

Not svarbanik (sonar) he is kayastha and his father name gaur mohan Dey he is kayastha and Swami Shila prabhupada is belonging to kayastha caste he is born in Kulin Kayastha family of Bengal. Yashdeep453 (talk) 02:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a WP:Reliable source and it can be changed. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:26, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Views on evolution

Swami Prabhupada's anti-Darwinian views are found here [1] and printed in his book Life Comes from Life [2]. These are primary sources so they are no good for the article but a handful of academic books have picked up on his anti-Darwinian views such as "Asian Religious Responses to Darwinism", page 122 and "Science and Religion Around the World", pages 204-205. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These academic papers may be of use, I will check through them [3], [4] Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I will look forward to incorporate them. Editorkamran (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name inconsistency

On the article there is some name inconsistency throughout, either Bhaktivedanta or Prabhupada is being used. I would suggest using only using one. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bhaktivedanta is the correct choice. See this. Changed here for consistency. Editorkamran (talk) 03:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Bhaktivedanta" is not the correct choice, as it's not his name. His name was Swami; Bhaktivedanta and Prabhupada are both honorifics. Calling (Bhaktivedanta) Swami "Bhaktivedanta" is like calling Swami Bon "Bhakti Hriyada" for short, Sridhara "Bhakti Rakshak", Keshava "Bhakti Prajnana", etc. Note also that there are other Bhaktivedantas, most prominently Bhaktivedanta Narayana and his lineage. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If Prabhupada is a honorific too, then why did you just revert the last change and reinstall Prabhupada [5]? --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it should be Swami, really, but at least Prabhupada is largely unique to him, whereas literally every Pure Bhakti sannyasi, for example, is called Bhaktivedanta (BV) Something Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:45, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced both by Swami. If you have a problem with that, do not revert the whole edit again but talk about the problem here. We are not janitors who do your work for you while you do only vetoes. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Completely unnecessarily hostile tone, but OK. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the title "swami" an honorific bestowed by a community of religious believers? It seems to me that referring to him repeatedly as swami is akin to referring to Jesus as "the Christ" - not particularly encyclopedic.... PurpleChez (talk) 03:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@PurpleChez: Yes "swami" should be removed. It is not used by quality sources.[6][7][8][9] Editorkamran (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So what is his name? His actual name, devoid of honorifics? 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
His birth name is "Abhay Charan De". Editorkamran (talk) 09:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Surely that settles the name inconsistency. All else can he handled within the article provided it is decided what name should be used throughout the article, with removal of all honorific.
The article title should reflect WP:MOSNAME and redirects can handle the remaining variations
The honorifics may be described, certainly. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:14, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit confusing because Swami is of course a title, but it is also (along with "Goswami") a name used by sannyasis in the line of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. The man in question's name, without honorifics, is "A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami". Rendered with Swami as a title, it'd be something like "Swami B.V. Swami", which is obviously very confusing and so he avoided doing so.

It's explained in this letter:

So far the title Swami is concerned, although this word is used generally for Sannyasins, this Swami is my particular name as Sannyasi. ... So far the prefix "Swami" is concerned, every sannyasi has got to do that, but two ways Swami (Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami) is not good looking.

Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Views

I see many gaping issues with this area.

Slavery: The basis of Prabhupada's teachings and in fact of ISKCON's is that of the soul. Having read his books, it is quite evident to me that he strongly insists that the body and its characteristics are not representative of the soul within, and this can be seen in many of his writings and evidenced by anyone who actually knew him.

Lower Castes: I don't know why this is here. This statement is similar to saying "manual workers don't need much training, but doctors and skilled jobs do", which is true.

Hitlers and Jews: In the first quote, he mentions previous demons (Hiranyakasipu and Kamsa) in his definition of heroes. I can say with absolute certainty that here he means "heroes" as "people with great power", as in his writings he has also denounced these entities many times over as they were antagonistic towards Prahlada (a devotee of God) and Krishna (God himself). Therefore, this statement cannot be used as proof of him supporting antisemitism. Second quote follows same logic as the quote from slavery: against his teachings, so probably a false quote. Thechamp9002 (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia runs on reliable sources and that content is well-sourced. You are have not given any sources just your personal opinion. If you have reliable secondary sources presenting different views feel free to cite them but we do not cite primary sources or personal opinion. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The whole "Views" section is full of bigoted, wrong, evil, and fringe ideas. They should not just be cited (slavery is great, Hitler was a hero, Jews need to be killed, evolution is nonsense, the moon landing never happened) but put in a mainstream context, just as we would do it in articles about other crackpots. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So quote where prabhupad said hitler was a hero, or that slavery is gteay, or that jews need to be killed 82.6.61.201 (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because those views generated more notability for him as clearly highlighted by the reliable sources. Editorkamran (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, none of them actually say that prabhupad "advocated for hitlers holocaust"...and by hero, is also refering to kamsa and hiranyakashipu who are demons. In fact in that very same convo prabhupad calls hitler a demon. The people who edited this page know this. They are just being so unbelievablely bad faith. 82.6.61.201 (talk) 15:23, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That content was added by an experienced user Editorkamran so I doubt there has been misrepresentation. The source given for the content about Hitler is The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant which is a reliable academic source, I have not read it yet but I have access to it, so I will check it tonight and verify the source. I plan on improving the article so will definitely check the book out later. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"advocated for hitlers holocaust" is not mentioned anywhere but "He held Jews to be responsible for Holocaust". It is a well-known antisemitic trope to hold Jews responsible for the atrocities caused on them by Hitler. Editorkamran (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've reverted to the pre-war version of the article. Consensus shoud be reached first here on the talk page as per Wikipedia rules. Now about the problems with the information that several editors try to add to the article: 1. While The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant is indeed a publication edited by indologist Edwin F. Bryant and published by an academic publisher, it is in fact a compilation of articles written mostly by current and former ISKCON devotees, most of them are not scholars. 2. The cource is improperly cited, on the pages cited there is an article by a former ISKCON member and Harikesa Swami's disciple Ekkehard Lorenz. 3. In the contributor's section it's stated that Ekkehard Lorenz is "a student of Indology with focus on medieval ancient Sanskrit at the Institute for Oriental Languages at the University of Stokholm, Sweden". In other words, the authot is not a scholar in the field, not a scholar at all (he didn't even have a higher education at the time of writing). Therefore his analysis of Swami Bhaktivedanta's teachings have zero weight and should not be added to the article. 4. I was not able to find any other source that mentions those controversial statements on race, Hitler etc. When (and if) such sources will be found, we can discuss here adding this information to the article.--Gaura79 (talk) 08:24, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your last edit was not acceptable, you are deleting far too much. You have admitted the book is reliable published by an academic publisher, we do not need to be doing ad-hominem attacks on its authors as the publisher is a reliable source. I do not see any valid reason to remove that source. Psychologist Guy (talk) 09:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The author of the article should also be reliable, not only the publisher. And it seems you have conveniently forgotten about WP:RSUW. I'm simply reverting to the last consensus version of the article. This is done per Wikipedia rules WP:Consensus. These statements are poorly sourced and I expalined above why. I'm not attacking the author, I'm simply stating the obvious: he's not a scholar and his take on Swami's views is not significant enough to be included in the article. If this information is so important, why can't you find a proper source that corraborate Lorenz's "findings" about Swami being a racist and an anti-semite? A source that is scholarly and neutral? And why should we omit other Swami's views that are really important and have tons of material written about them and include instead a biased Tabloid-style analysis from a person who is not even a scholar? --Gaura79 (talk) 11:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are falsely labeling Hollywood Reporter "not an RS in this subject"[10], stating "Ekkehard Lorenz is not a RS"[11] despite the book is published by New York University Press and you claim that "publication edited by indologist Edwin F. Bryant and published by an academic publisher" is ultimately not reliable.
These claims confirm that you are simply whitewashing. There are more reliable sources[12] which cover these statements from Bhaktivendanta Swami but we don't need them per WP:OVERKILL. Editorkamran (talk) 14:47, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RS (and common sense) say that credentials of the author affect reliability, you say it doesn't matter. I think you should take this discussion more seriously:

When editors talk about sources that are being cited on Wikipedia, they might be referring to any one of these three concepts:

Any of the three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people.

Gaura79 (talk) 15:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First find equally reliable sources which dispute these quotations. Just nitpicking reliable sources is disruptive. Editorkamran (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I clearly stated in this disscussion why this source is not good according to WP:RS and WP:RSUW. And on top of that the source doesn't support the statement you try to add to the article. This is all E. Lorenz says about Prabhupada, Hitler and Jews:

In a monarchy, a king with a prestigious position follows the great deeds of his forefathers.91

Gradually the democratic government is becoming unfit for the needs of the people, and therefore some parties are trying to elect a dictator. A dic- tatorship is the same as a monarchy, but without a trained leader. Actu- ally people will be happy when a trained leader, whether a monarch or a dictator, takes control of the government and rules the people according to the standard regulations of the authorized scriptures.92 Statements like the last one, in which Bhaktivedanta Swami declares that he fa- vors even dictatorship above democracy, are by no means rare: So monarchy or dictatorship is welcome. Now the Communists, they want dictatorship. That is welcome, provided that particular dictator is trained like Maharaja Yudhishthira.93 I like this position, dictatorship. Personally I like this.94 Bhaktivedanta Swami’s appreciation for dictatorship is further underlined by his generally approving remarks about Hitler. While he often mentions Hitler to give an example of materialistic scheming, he nevertheless calls him a hero and a gentleman: Why should our temples support or denounce Hitler. If somebody says something in this connection it must simply be some sentiment. We have nothing to do with politics.95 So these English people, they were very expert in making propaganda. They killed Hitler by propaganda. I don’t think Hitler was so bad man.96 Hitler knew it [the atom bomb] . . . everything, but he did not like to do it. . . . He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that “I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon.” The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it.97 Sometimes he becomes a great hero—just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.98 Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews. . . . And they were supplying. They want interest money—“Never mind against our country.” There-

fore Hitler decided, “Kill all the Jews.”99

Gaura79 (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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