Talk:Ken Wilber: Difference between revisions

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Has anyone checked out wiki page on Cohen of being a cult leader, etc. It seems that Wilber has another case of supporting an unsavory character like Da Free John. Is there anything worth mentioning on the wikipedia page of Wilber??? ForrestLane42 04:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

That sounds rather POV to me. Wilber's association with Cohen is clear on this page and anything relevant to Cohen can go on the Cohen page. --Backface 20:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not when there are allegations of misconduct on Cohen's part. And Wilber is clearly associating with him regardless of it, like Free John. Shows a history of Wilber supporting unsavory characters. ForrestLane42 22:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I fail to see how you are going to say 'unsavory' while keeping in line with WP:POV. Cohen is clearly a loon, but wikipedia has rules about these things.--Backface 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can we say of Cohen just that he has been suspected of being a cult leader? I mean even his mother says it... I just think it says a lot of Wilber, who he hangs out with. I mean the I C S A at least has classified Da Free John as a cult leader. http://www.icsahome.com/idx_icsa.htm ForrestLane42 15:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

First of all, I think the jury's still very much out on Cohen being either a "loon", an "unsavory character", or much less a cult leader, so I think any mention of that in the Wilber entry is definitely out of place. As for Wilber's association with Adi Da (once known as Da Free John), this dates way back to the 80s and there's a link in the Adi Da references section (note 10) to an article by Wilber (1996) that clearly dissociates him with Adi Da, the teacher (although not necessarily his "teachings"). So I don't think we can question Wilber's integrity based on his alleged "history of ... supporting unsavory characters", as this is clearly non-neutral POV in my opinion... OK, you're free to question his integrity on your own, but it has no place on his Wikipedia entry. --Grey 12:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grey, the jury out?? When his mother is one of his main accusers, his mother!? As for Wilber - at this point it might be POV but I think it is commonsense when you have people around that are unsavory, it is reasonable to expect that it will rub off. ForrestLane42 19:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Since when did all families become little Utopian islands where everyone is perfectly supportive and understanding? I mean, I've tried to have philosophical discussions with my mother (which is far from trying to be her guru... although I have tried teaching English to my wife, which was just about as disastrous) and soon learned that it was best to just avoid it because of how much I made her cry. And have you ever heard of "crazy wisdom"? So what if Cohen had the odd follower punched in the arm or dipped in cold water. If he did that to everybody as a general rule, that's one thing, but nothing I've read so far indicates that he's done that with anyone other than the occasional long-time follower who made a conscious choice to follow him and knew exactly what they were getting into. Without having all the facts and being well aware of the whole context in which the event took place, we're in no place to judge. So I guess, no, the jury's not out. There's not even enough hard evidence yet to have a trial in the first place. --Grey 11:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think this page needs to be shortly a bit...as Wikipedia says this page has to many buzzwords. I think the Ideas section needs to be trimmed down. First thing that should be done is revamping the section with the Wilber 5 section which seems more linear to his ideas. Sections with Absolute/relative truth section, Wilber-Combs lattice, etc add information that those more interested in studying wilberian thought can go find in a library. Statements like "In a recent (dated 2006) online article/interview on his Shambhala website, "On the Nature of a Post-Metaphysical Spirituality: Response to Habermas and Weis",[11] Wilber speaks of Post-Metaphysical Spirituality. On another page, "Future Excerpts from Kosmic Karma and Creativity to Be Posted",[12] he presents an outline that includes "Excerpt F: Integral Post-Metaphysics", but (as of 28 January 2006) no further material has been posted regarding this." Can be written in a much smaller sentence, like "In a recent (dated 2006) online article/interview on his Shambhala website, Wilber has spoken of a post-metaphysical spirituality and has been in the process of elaborating this thought into his work. In fact I plan to make the switch now. Basically, can we trunicate the words into a more concise page.ForrestLane42 01:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

If you want to edit the prose in the article, go right ahead. But stop deleting entire paragraphs. I will continue to revert your deletions. And it's not "Wikipedia" which claims that a section contains buzzwords, it's whatever editor added that tag. — goethean ॐ 18:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then, goethean, to avoid an edit war, an arbitrator should be called in because from how I see and how I watched how you work on other pages, you seem to edit with little concern for consensus. I will have to revert your reverts, and then after the third time, you revert me, wikipedia should step in. ForrestLane42 19:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Backface, can you please have someone come take this page over since goethean and myself can not resolve our differences. 19:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42

Hi, friends, ForrestLane42 asked me to look in here and see if I can be of any use mediating. My position is that I respect Wilber but I'm not a believer — I've read one of his (longer) books, and it wasn't my cup of tea, but I was impressed by his writing and scholarship. So maybe I occupy some kind of middle ground. If you both ask, I'll review the argument and let you know what I think, but not necessarily real soon, because I do have a job ... Cheers, Eleuther 21:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I look forward to hearing your suggestions. — goethean ॐ 21:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to help too, although I am not sure that Goethean would necessary want me to as he seems to believe that I am not acting in good faith. --Backface 22:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Backface and Eleuther, I welcome your imput and I do not believe that goethean has acted in good faith, if you read his reverts there are little discussion, just done, no talk, I suggest you look at his talk page and look at his activities, there is a pattern of tyrannical editing. I think when you look at my edits they have been reasonable and sensible. I too am not a believer of Wilber, but I been as objective as I think anyone can as a human. Goethean has reverted in the past three times without real discussion and has not acted in good faith as an editor. If you get a chance look at other pages he has edited, there is a pattern! I welcome some more objectivity... ForrestLane42 23:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Why don't you go to other articles and start deleting entire paragraphs without discussion. See how far you get. — goethean ॐ 15:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think the main parties have now been heard from. If you want me to go ahead with this, we need some ground rules. I'm going to have to do a significant amount of work here, studying not just the article, but also edit histories and external sources, and I don't want to do it if it's not going to do any good. I don't have a personal oar to pull with regards to Wilber, but I do want to help Wikipedia to work right.

So, the rules:

• Our goal is to produce a top-quality Wikipedia article, encyclopedic and appropriately detailed, properly sourced, and free of WP:POV and WP:OR problems. (Note that WP:POV doesn't forbid POV, it only requires it to be properly expressed.)
• We are doing this cooperatively and dispassionately, with no more personal attacks or passion or anger among ourselves, so please, no more good faith or bad faith. We hereby re-boot the old debate from scratch, and leave all that stuff behind. In particular, we are not discussing the propriety of past edits or reversions — we are only discussing the form and language of the future article.
• There's a non-binding presumption, but still a presumption, that when I rule on a disputed issue, you will respect it. (Otherwise, why am I doing this?)

If this seems reasonable, please sign on by adding a line of the form "*Agreed (optional comment) (four tildes)" to this block, and when all three of you are there, I'll start my slog through the horrific pile of relevant prose. Cheers! Eleuther 02:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Agreed, but thinks that past edits should be looked at by merits of worthiness in future edition of page. ForrestLane42 06:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]
  • Good, I do plan to look over past edits, but only for the quality of the content, not to judge who was right or wrong on any particular day. Eleuther 11:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree. I also request that ForrestLane42 stop attacking me personally and begin to assume good faith per Wikipedia policy. If he refuses, I will bring the situation to the attention of an administrator. — goethean ॐ 15:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Goethean - Perhaps you could extend that courtesy to others too. Your remarks on the Michel Bauwens deletion page did not assume good faith on the part of either myself or ForrestLane42. --Backface 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• On that page, I pointed out that your activities under this username consist almost entirely of nominating articles from the integral thought category for deletion. Users who appear suddenly with an intimate understanding of the process and who evince a clear agenda often have their identity and motivations questioned. You fall into that category. Seriously. This was your fifth edit under this username. That's so suspicious, it's funny. — goethean ॐ 17:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • Very happy to have amused you. However, I can assure you that there is no more to me than meets the eye. I have no connection with ForrestLane42. In fact, I have no concern with Goethean that needs mediation, but would like to be involved in any concerted effort to improve the page. Wikipedia is not very difficult to work your way around - the policies are clear enough for anyone to see. The thing is that I am a keen integralist (pro-Wilber, very vaguely connected to II but no uncritical disciple, for the record.) The state of the integral pages here at the moment is very poor. Some of them terminally so. Fortunately, the wikipedia policies seem to be helpful in putting that right. I appreciate that you like some of the pages, I have nominated or proded and I am sorry if I have offended you.

Anyway, this page is a rather different kettle of fish. I would very much like to discuss it with you, but I need to ask you for at least some initial trust if we are going to get anywhere. If you like I am happy to have an off-line discussion and let you know who I am in real life.

I guess I want to ask you - What is your overall intention on the shape of this article? What are you wanting to convey in terms of biography, theory and criticism and what balance are you wanting to strike between the three? What level of prior familiarity are you expecting of a reader?

Anyway, I agree to Eleuther's approach. I suggest that he can probably read selectively to avoid wasting a lot of his time. Perhaps Goethean can help point out salient areas.

--Backface 02:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Eleuther and Backface, how can we mediate with someone even during the mediation process doesn't act in good faith?? The past is the past, backface and I have only looked to edit where there has been POVs,etc. Look to his personal talk page, this is not the first arbitration or mediation page he has been involved, I do not think the same can be said for me or Backface. I have constisently said this page should be protected by wikipedia and be edited by someone who is more objective than u or me. Yes, I have been highly emotional and should know better, but when I see somone trying to dictate a page, its troublesome to me. ForrestLane42 00:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Backface, how can you say there is no connection between us, I thought we had a somewhat amicable relationship. ForrestLane42 11:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Hey, I'm not saying we were not amicable, merely that we are independent of one another. --Backface 20:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I can see this is going to be no fun! I'll get to work and try to post something later today or tomorrow. Cheers, Eleuther 15:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I typed in "new age" and got this, which I think shows that the Wilber article is relatively sane. My idea was to see if it would be realistic to describe Wilber as a new age philosopher and religious leader. It seems I need to change my tack. Cheers, more to come, Eleuther 04:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wilber specifically objects to being considered 'new age' although he accepts that being placed in the new age / mbs sections of bookshops is the best way to get sales, rather than psychology / philosophy.

Can I suggest that a good approach to sorting this out is to get a good idea of what each of the participants wants the page to look like and what approach they want taken to setting out Wilber's life, work and critics. Goethean has done a considerable amount of work and thinking on this, ForrestLane42 feels unheard and I want to bring some encyclopedeic discipline to the page. The best solution is going to satisfy all three views rather than introduce yet another one which none of us will agree with. I think it would be wise for us all to set out our 'objectives' for the page and then for a discussion to take place as to how these can be acheived. --Backface 12:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi, Backface, I agree, the last thing I want to do is introduce a fourth viewpoint. I was just browsing around, trying to get my bearings. I'm not planning to suggest new content, only a lot of removal, and principles for the replacement content. I also agree that encyclopedic discipline should be the watchword. Eleuther 14:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So to kick off here is mine:

The page needs to read like an encylopaedia entry, as for any other philosopher psychologist, writer, whatever.

Becsuse there is so much heat around Wilber in his attempt to increase awareness of his ideas, there is a lot of inward-looking and irrelevant waffle from people with various levels of ego investment in the community around his work. All these people seem to believe that they have a need to have their particular view expressed on the page, whereas in fact this is not necessary and not encyclopaedic. Because of the enthusiasm for the debate, the page has been hacked so many times that it is about 3 times as long as it should be. We do not need to offer a narration of a private blog flame war.

I would like to see the page give a clear overview of Wilbers life, his work (writing and II), the basics of his ideas (WP is not a philosophy text book and there is too much about this at the moment), an overview of the cogent criticism.

Criticism is the worst part of the page at the moment. There is far to much nonsense around this stuff from people hanging their cranky ideas onto Wilber's work. There is precious little notable criticism of Wilber, most of it is just people mouthing off on their blogs or web sites and seriously mixing up personal problems with Wilber. (Sorry, somebody expressing how they met Wilber once and he wasn't a very emotional guy is not notable even if he is a big name in Transpersonal Psych.) The notable criticism that exists, notably in the book "Ken Wilber in Dialogue" is very, very useful and this should be emphasised. Some of it is pretty devastating. I suggest that anything that is not published in a book is removed. This is in line with Wikipedia policy.

The problem here is that Wilber has been largely ignored by the academic community rather than criticised and therefore embraced by it. This is his own fault largely. However, the page can just note this rather than replace the missing cogent criticism with self-published drivel from self-declared esotericists.

An overview that stated that there is a growing integral community relating to his and others' work with various factions who disagree with one another would be enough, without listing and quoting every individual who has blogged some ad hominem attack. Only put them here if they are notable -ie have published material that is referenced outside the integral community (i.e. not dallman, bauwens, falk, WIE, zaadsters, IN, integralworld, integral review, integral leadership review, all the various blogs we people write etc. etc. etc.)

The starting point should in my view be to attempt to produce the right page for an encyclopaedia, not to produce the page the one particular aspect of the integral community or another would want to see, nor to try to create a consensus of the various parts of the integral community. Perhaps think about what would be important to people reading the page in 10 years time.

Where is there a really good article about a philosopher / pyschologist writer that we can use as a template?

End lecture here. Over to you Goethean, ForrestLane42, anyone else who is listening. --Backface 12:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Backface, I agree this page has always need to read more like an encylopedic page than what is there already. His biography is an example of trying to boost Wilber up - i.e. Taylor quotation, the page is way too long. His ideas section has become overblown and best left for those interested in Wilber to read on their own.

The criticism section is the hardest part, there is so much disdain for Wilber some for good reason, others for not so good reason. The present section misses the essence on why people dont agree with Wilber. I think you can say that Wilber has been attacked for reasons such as not answering the criticism given, his personality, etc. I am sure if you look to Hegel or Kant, they might mentioned the negative parts of their personality. All has to be brief and not to the point of exhaustion. I think his ideas should be done around his prposed five phases of work. I would also like to see at the final revision of this page, some sort of protection template given, so that no one can try to revert it back to its pre-historic days. ForrestLane42 18:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

ForrestLane42, please try not to place your comments in the middle of another editor's comments. — goethean ॐ 18:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that readers of Backface's comments should consider his contributions to Wikipedia when evaluating them. His nominations for deletion were assisted by a deeply entrenched bias against transpersonal and integral theory on Wikipedia and rampant deletionism. Others of his nominations, like Michel Bauwens, were rejected by people who actually knew about the subject, but could been deleted had those people not shown up. This comment by Backface, in which he appaers to argue that an article should be deleted because it is not in the Encyclopedia Britannica, betrays an apalling ignorance of Wikipedia's mission, goals, and policies. Please see his other comments at that policy talk page before evaluating his comments here.

I disagree with Backface that Wilber's ideas should be de-emphasized. I also disagree with the idea that material cited to books should take precedence over material cited from published articles. Much of the rest of Backface's comments are rhetorical in nature and lack meaning. Of course we should emphasize encyclopedic material — who could disagree with that? The more difficult question is: what qualifies as encyclopedic?

Apart from the biography section (which was written by User:Blainster) and the criticism section (by User:M Alan Kazlev), I have almost singlehandedly written this article. I have also spent considerable amounts of time defending it from vandals, reductionists, and others. When I first began editing the article, it looked like this. I also wrote the articles on AQAL, SES, and others. So we are discussing my work here. I welcome constructive criticism, but I have not as yet seen evidence for it. — goethean ॐ 19:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whoooaa. hold your horses!!

I am very sorry that Goethean has chosen to take this approach, which does not seem tremendously constructive and is certainly far from assuming good faith. He does not appear to show himself in a very good light. I don't quite know what I have done to annoy him so much and I guess I have to answer his points one-by-one, but it seems rather tiresome to do so when I would much rather talk about the page. Anyway, here goes.

• Goethean believes that I have a deeply entrenched bias against transpersonal and integral theory. This is far from the case. I have written elsewhere positively on integral theory and I am a keen integralist. I have other credentials in this area which I decline to state in order to protect my privacy. As I have stated before, my sole aim here is to improve the quality of the coverage of integral topics in Wikipedia. Goethean makes his accusations based on assumptions that are incorrect and are easily put right but I do not understand the extreme anger with which he seems to put them.

• I stated clearly that my objection to the Bauwens page is that it has no reliable sources and that I would withdraw my objections to it if some were made known. Goethean could easily have done so if he had any. Nobody did. This is not an anti-integral stance but one that is pro-Wikipedia. Trust me; I do know what I am talking about. There is an awful lot of self-publicity in this arena and a small amount of tremendously valuable work such as Wilber's. Wikipedia's policy, if followed closesly, will ensure that coverage emphasises the good and minimises the dross. I do not see this as 'rampant deletionism' but as a correction of a tendency of the integral community to spread its internal debates outward. By all means check the history of my changes, all of which are consistent with improving the quality of coverage of integral matters, even if that involved proposing the deletion of things Goethean happens to like when they breach WP policy. Perhaps this is the source of the rancour which seems to be causing him to lose his balance.

• Goethean has deliberatly missed my point about Britannica in order to paint me in a poor light here. (I am sorry to suspend assumption of good faith but I am defending myself from a personal attack here.) Please read the page as Goethean suggests that you do, you will see that I am responding to a particular statement by Kazlev. Kazlev states his disappointment that Wikipedia is not competing with Britannica which he blames on events such as the deletion of a particular article. I pointed out that Britannica does not cover that suject either in order to question Kazlev's pessimism. I certainly do not believe that Britannica's lack of coverage of the subject is a reason to keep it out of Wikipedia. Sheeeesh! The reason to keep it out of Wikipedia is that it is not notable and has no RS as I stated on the afd page and in the debate to which Goethean refers. That, as I was observing, is what keeps it out of Britanica also. He states that I show an "apalling [sic] ignorance of Wikipedia's mission, goals, and policies". This remark is wrong but it is also way over the line. Goethean, try to keep a lid on it, my friend.

• This is not the first time I have had to defend myself personally from his ad hominem attacks. I have made no similar attacks on him. I appreciate that I have proposed the deletion of articles that he liked. These were handled by the proper process and the relevant policies and I have no objection where decisions of the community have not gone my way. I have offered to speak off-line to Goethean and verify my real-world identity to begin to build some trust and this offer has not been taken up. Many of the things I mention here, I have already written in such responses before. I ask, once again, Goethean, that you cease this line of attack and begin to address the work in hand rather than me personally. I trust that I will not have to repeat these comments again.

As I stated before, I acknowledge that he has thought long and deeply about this subject and congratulate him for the work he has done. I would like to again extend my invitation to him to set out his vision for the page. I can appreciate that a reconsideration of the page such as the exercise we are now attempting may not be easy for him since he has contributed considerably towards the current version. So have many others. I appreciate the work that he and others have put into it and hope that, in this exercise, we can use this work as a firm basis on which to build to create an article worthy of featured status. I certainly do not want to throw away baby with bathwater. --Backface 22:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Goethean believes that I have a deeply entrenched bias against transpersonal and integral theory.

I should have been more clear. I meant that your nominating articles for deletion was assisted by an entrenched bias against integral thought among Wikipedians. I was talking about a bias against integral thought on Wikipedia, not your personal bias. The "rampant deletionism" phrase also referred to a trend on Wikipedia in general. — goethean ॐ 22:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have made no similar attacks on him.

If my contributions to Wikipedia consisted of removing content and attempting to have articles deleted, I might expect some resistance. — goethean ॐ 22:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have offered to speak off-line to Goethean and verify my real-world identity to begin to build some trust and this offer has not been taken up.

See your talk page. — goethean ॐ 22:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of "setting out my goals" for the article here on the talk page. Apart from the haggling that I had to do with dismissive, skeptical editors, the article is my vision. (Except for that "Wilber's five stages" section. Who put that ugly thing in?) — goethean ॐ 23:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This quote must be highlighted for it is evident that goethean does not plan to work in good faith and feels entitled to run this page to his whims. Sorry that is not how wikipedia works. Eleuther, goethean has attacked backface unprovoked, he says this article is his vision, how can there be mediation with such a tyrant? Eleuther, if you know how to contact Wikipedia to get involved, it would be appreciated.

as for a bias against integralism, that is bogus and a false front to protect your own agenda. There is no bias, if there is rampant deletionism on integral pages, it is because most of them have no substance,not noteworthy, and end up being a waste of space. Take the Matthew Dallman page for example. Wikipedia is not a place for advertisement of integralism. I fully endorse Backface's statement:"I do not see this as 'rampant deletionism' but as a correction of a tendency of the integral community to spread its internal debates outward."

As for goethean's statement "I welcome constructive criticism, but I have not as yet seen evidence for it." He has never set a standard of good faith in this area, he reverts without explaining them, without having a democratic discussion on the deletion, it is his view of constructive criticism - if I didn't know better goethean is Wilber himself. Seems to define the game and wants you to play by his rules.

Lastly, goethean I do not understand how I put my comments in the middle of anyone's statements. Sorry if I did, but please a minor mistake. goethean, wikipedia is not a place for the war in the integral world, how bout you start a clone of wikipedia for all things integral. Infact isn't there such a thing called Integral Wiki?????

backface, sorry that you had to face such remarks from goethean. ForrestLane42 00:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Whoever wants to can look at the article history and see that other editors have edited the article successfully. But when someone vandalizes the article, I undo their changes. When you deleted entire paragraphs, I undid your changes. This is reasonable. As I suggested earlier, why don't you try deleting paragraphs from other artifles and see what happens? See also Wikipedia is not a democracy. — goethean ॐ 01:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You mention wikipedia is not a democracy but look at the fine print - "Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion" - this seems like a democracy, if it walks, quaks, and sounds like a duck, its a duck... primarily the emphasis is on discussion, which looking at your style of editing has been clearly lacking. As to the charge of deleting entire paragraphs - this is not vandalism, this is called editing, when one finds paragraphs that make no sense, talks with a high brow - meaning someone who knows integral knowledge inside and out, this page is a primer, not a textbook for integralism, IMO. There has been paragraphs that either are there for self-advertisement, non-sensical,etc. Why dont' you post those paragraphs for Eleuther to look at - to see if they warrant inclusion or can at least be retooled. Sorry Eleuther, its hard to back off when you have one partner who has made it clear that this is his page. let me know if i signed right, Eleuther. 04:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42

If the paragraphs that don't make any sense are from Wilber, then rather than deleting them, introductory material needs to be introduced that will guide the reader into the quotation. Eleuther is fully capable of reading the article for himself. — goethean ॐ 04:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, crew, sorry to have been missing in action, my network router was down for awhile. I see you have managed to stay busy.

• Backface, I liked most of what you said in View from the Backface. I would happily turn this whole mediation job over to you, if only you could moderate your language and swallow your pride a bit.
• ForrestLane42, when you add a comment, it's best to do it after the signature line of the previous talker, and maybe to indent it to make it clear who is responding to whom. This is a minor formatting error, not a major sin.
• Goethean, it's improper in the current context (where we're all trying to cooperate) to attack ForrestLane42 over a minor formatting error, and to go on to attack Backface over his past contibutions. Past conflicts are not relevant to the current discussion.
• Goethean, you go on to say that you have singlehandedly written most of the article. Thanks for your work, but Wikipedia articles are not owned by single editors, and it's clear the article can't stand in its current form. Backface has invited interested parties to describe what they want the article to look like. Please contribute to this – give us a paragraph or two about what you think the content should be. I'm waiting for this before I give my opinion, since you seem to be the main skeptic.

Over all, all of you, stop it! No more personalities, no more history, no more breast-beating. Only polite discussion of the content of the article. Cheers, Eleuther 03:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eleuther, I apologize, but I have sincere doubts that goethean will ever reach consensus with mediation. ForrestLane42 04:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Hi, ForrestLane42, I said stop it — forget it, let it be.

-Ouch. -ForrestLane42

Eleuther, I didn't attack Forrestlane, I made a polite request of him. I also didn't mean to imply that I owned the article; but merely that there is no need for me to give a vision for the article when I have already made that vision into reality. But since Backface has successfully framed the debate in this way, I suppose that I should say something so that I do not appear obstructionist. The article should consist of two major sectons: biography and ideas. The biography should highlight when he released which books and should describe his five phases. The ideas section should be organized the way it is now -- into subsections on his major ideas, plus a section on major criticism. Much of the recent criticism has taken place online, and the criticism section should note that. — goethean ॐ 04:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eleuther, goethean's comment "I also didn't mean to imply that I owned the article; but merely that there is no need for me to give a vision for the article when I have already made that vision into reality." It seems to be a contradiction in terms...if he does not own this article, which is a truth statement, how can it be "no need for me to give a vision" when "I have already made that vision into reality, come on, are we that obtuse?? —ForrestLane42

(The following comments arrived in the middle of some conflicting edits in the previous section (Reboot!) — I've moved them to a new section because it seemed to make more sense, please revert or comment if you disagree. Eleuther 05:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Excuse me if I am trespassing on this dispute, but while Eleuther is considering, I'll throw in a cent or two. My main concerns about this article are at the top of the page, in the "Wilber as philosopher" discussion. The article has been modified (mostly for the better) since then, but some of what I said there is still worth mentioning. In particular, this article's principal failure as an encyclopedia article is that it does not present a realistic view of Wilber's unimportance among everyone outside the Integralist community. Someone coming to Wikipedia with little knowledge of (say) philosophy, psychology, or the study of consciousness, might read this article and, from its lengthy and mostly uncritical presentation of his ideas, draw the conclusion that Wilber is a major figure in contemporary philosophy or psychology, when in fact virtually no experts in these fields bother to even notice his work. Unless this article prominently notes this, it is biased by default. 271828182 04:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I, for one concur with 271828182 above statement. He or she has put things into a nutshell. —ForrestLane42 05:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

271828182, I read your editing to the introduction - Heidegger, a very controversial philopher - very well-balanced and continue to welcome your thoughts on this page 'wilber as philosopher revisited'.

So what is the proper term, then? If I had to pick a single word for what Wilber does, I personally would pick philosophy — but I also acknowledge that he's not a university professor, and there seems to be a presumption that only university professors can do that thing. So what's the right word, eh? Eleuther 06:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, Eleauther, he can at best - at best be considered a pseudo-philosopher IMO. IMO, what Wilber does, is he picks and chooses ideas from different thoughts and attempts to synthesize them into what he calls integral. He is not accepted by academia because he is not a philosopher. He remains in the religious realm. He might be a New Age author, IMO. His books would I presume be found in that section in Borders. The person above who started wilber revisited, is right, if someone less knowledgeable on Wilber, sees this page, they would think that he was actually "the Einstein of consciousness" clearly he is not. He is too his fans no doubt, but to academia, to the world outside of integralism, he is a New Age author. But by what standard do u think he is a philosopher? In the past, someone tried to say he was a psychologist, which is not! To be a psychologist, one has to be accredited as such. One who happens to be well-versed in psychology or philosophy does not mean they owe the title of psychologist or philosopher, and to give them that title would make the word rather naive. -ForrestLane42 06:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

ForrestLane42, you are correct, IMO. He's basically a new age author and thinker who attempts to weave various ideas (often derivative) into an integral pattern, which has resulting in a following; has endorsed highly flawed gurus (Adi Da, former followers of Da like Deida, Saniel Bonder etc, and Andrew Cohen); and more recently, has taken on the role of a spiritual transmitter in his own right. He can be soundly criticized for everything from his new age psuedo-scientific views to his new age belief in an evolutionary enlightenment. He may be influential in new age circles but he's hardly the influence his followers would like to have one believe. --Dseer 07:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think "writer" is a reasonably NPOV way to describe Wilber, despite its vagueness. I'm not saying that only university professors can be called philosophers, by the way (see the discussion above). 271828182 07:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, "writer" is a weasel-word. Sure, he writes well, but that's not the point. The important thing about him is his ideas, not his wordage. If you can't stomach philosopher, call him a religious thinker, or whatever. Eleuther 08:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with Eleuther. Writer is not a weasal word. Wilber writes on many subjects: psychology, sociology, philosophy, science, new age, religion, spirituality...he is a general non-fiction writer. (And he wrote a novel.) — goethean ॐ 16:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A weasel word, as I understand it, is a qualifier that implies something dubious: e.g., "Leaves glasses virtually spotless", or "Wilber may be the greatest thinker of the 21st century". Describing Wilber as a writer, then, is not to weasel. It is vague, as I said, but the problem is that Wilber's own work is exceedingly vague. "New Age writer" or "New Age theorist" are both agreeable to me -- more specific than "writer" but basically neutral. (I don't think calling him a New Age writer would be much of an insult to a supporter, since someone sympathetic to Wilber will tend to think that New Age ideas are on the right track.) 271828182 05:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A weasel word is a word that is being used to avoid the real issue. Eleuther 10:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Calling him a religious thinker would fall into what Dseer is saying which would legitimize his works as something mainstream which clearly it is not. I openly wonder, can he not be seened and called a cult leader?? -ForrestLane42 11:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I now tend to describe Wilber as a New Age writer. Wilber fans will reject this as an insult, as Wilber considers himself a philosopher/psychologist. "Cult leader" is clearly POV and original research, as I don't think that he's ever been called that in print. In difficult situations like this, Wikipedia should describe the controversy rather than taking a side (pro- or con-). I recommend that Wikipedia say that Wilber's admirers see him as a contermporary philosopher or psychological theorist and that his detractors see him as a new age writer. There was a long conversation about this up towards the top of the page. — goethean ॐ 16:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all, quite a lively discussion you have going here. I just finished "A Theory of Everything", as well as the Wikipedia article and the talk page (when combined, about the same length as the book!) and some critical pages, and perhaps I can add another voice to help with finding a consensus.

To get right to it, I'd also opt for "author" or "writer" over philosopher, though I think "author" is better as he does author books, not just write articles/essays/etc. Given the long list of books that he's published, I think calling him primarily an author or writer is most accurate, and not disparaging in any way. If he gets most of his income from the sales of books (which seems likely, from the number of books written), calling him an author sounds most accurate and appropriate to me.Pro crast in a tor 16:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I say keep it as author not philosopher or psychologist because he is not accredited nor recognized by academia and to be recognized as a philosopher it will take 100 plus years. Cult leader might be POV but then again look at Adi Da or Andrew Cohen people whom he associates with are all seen to be accused of being a cult leader. BTW cult leader does not neccessarily mean evil, for Jesus Christ or Paul were once cult leaders! -ForrestLane42 16:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

My vote is to call him a writer (pretty much undeniable since he has published books) and explain that he draws upon the philosphical etc. traditions but from outside the mainstream of academia. This can all be done with a very small change and may just about satisfy us all. Let's see what you all think. --Backface 19:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Backface, I am not sure of your justification for traditions instead of interpretations....I would like interpretation to stay or be incorprated to the present translation because it encompasses the fact that he has knowledge in each of these subjects and has taken his knowledge and intrepreted it into his own "integral thought" - being that this is a subjective endeavor. -ForrestLane42 21:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I heartily approve of Backface's change to the second sentence [1]. His opening phrase, "Working outside the mainstream of academia," opens the door to unweasling the rest of the paragraph in a way that (maybe) everyone else can agree on (I wish I'd thought of it), for example something like:

K ... is an American philosopher, writer, and religious thinker. Working outside the mainstream of academia, he has drawn on a variety of disciplines including <existing list> to formulate a theory which he calls the integral theory of consciousness. <Defer discussion of kosmos, etc. to Ideas, spare us the story-teller bit, go directly to factual founding of Integral Institute, etc.>

Reactions? Eleuther 09:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me.--Backface 09:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds mostly good to me, except the philosopher part, IMO a philosopher is someone that has been awarded that title by society, everyone in reality is a philosopher, but those who are called philosophers have achieved exceptional notice by the society at large, not by a small subculture-community. just my thoughts -Truthiness406 16:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)Truthiness406[reply]

Would you describe Wilhelm Reich as a physicist? Or Immanuel Velikovsky as an astronomer? Or L. Ron Hubbard as a psychologist? All of them have as comparable a claim to those titles as Wilber does to "philosopher", i.e., they all wrote works putting forward substantial, complex theories about physics, astronomy, and psychology. However, none of them had any professional training in those fields, and no experts in those fields take their theories seriously. Calling Wilber a philosopher would be as bad as a Wikipedia article calling Hubbard a psychologist. "New Age theorist" is the most specific appellation I'm comfortable with for Wilber. 271828182 21:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I was hoping the "outside the mainstream" bit in the second sentence would be enough, but I guess not. My own opinion is that Philosophy is not the same kind of thing as Astronomy, i.e. there's a general consensus about where the boundaries of Astronomy are, more or less, but Philosophy is a different matter — it's more like what's left after all the science has been subtracted out.^[1] But I'm certainly not going to push it! As for new age, Backface says Wilber himself dislikes the term, so I was avoiding it, but it may be the best we can do. I'll leave it to you all to work out ... Eleuther 23:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Philosophy can't be just the non-science "leftovers", since that would lump theology, much of the social sciences, and the humanities into philosophy. Philosophy does have general consensus boundaries, just as any discipline or science does: look at what the experts talk and write about. And Wilber doesn't make that cut. I'm not attached to "New Age" as a label, but considering the company Wilber keeps, it seems descriptive rather than POV. 271828182 02:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"New Age" writer (and I would add thinker) is perfectly appropriate discriptively and not POV. A number of "New Age" figures claim they personally are not "New Age" despite falling within that spectrum, and the simplest way to see this is to ask how Wilber would have fared writing books in pre-"New Age" times? "New Age" also captures the religious quality of his work.--Dseer 08:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He would not have written these books in pre-New Age times - I think because he is post-New Age. BernhardMeyer 11:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wish someone would reply to the William James chapter I cited above. I think it's relevant, unless perhaps you don't count James as a philosopher. He defines philosophy as a mode of thought, rather than the proprietary activity of a particular class of people, which seems to be what you all are advocating. He also describes modern philosophy as the residuum that remains after the parts that have been understood have turned scientific — I'm not sure if he originated this idea, but he surely expresses it. Anyhow, that's what I was referring to in my remark.

Can anyone provide a source for the idea that philosopher refers to a social position, rather than an activity? As Wikipedians, we ought to be basing our arguments on sources, not on personal prejudices. I haven't been able to find a reputable source for this, but of course I haven't looked everywhere — please provide — thanks! Eleuther 14:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

as to social position - i.e Karl Marx, is what I come up with ---I think the difference lies in being a philosopher and being a recognized philosopher. Wilber is recognized only as a philosopher by his followers, not by third parties being either academia or the general public. ForrestLane42 18:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I already responded to James's definition, and pointed out how it is a bad definition: it is too broad to fit usage, as it classes all the humanities (and maybe mathematics and all the social sciences, too, depending on how you define "science") as philosophy. If you ask me what I do, and I say "oh, I philosophize", and you later discover I'm a historian (or an art critic, or a psychologist), you'd be right to think I was misusing the language. I don't think I'm basing my estimation of who is and who isn't a philosopher on mere personal prejudices, as you imply, nor would a footnote make a proposed definition unprejudiced. How we use titles, in particular, are always strongly influenced by social position, often ignoring activity entirely -- why else do you think L. Ron Hubbard, who purportedly devised a rigorous and infallible "science of the mind", is nonetheless not seriously considered a psychologist? 271828182 17:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, 271828182, I know you responded to my remark, but from what you're saying, I suspect you haven't actually read the James text I cited yet. He says a great deal more, all relevant to this discussion — the bit about modern philosophy being a remnant (residuum) is just a small part of it. I recommend it. Eleuther 14:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

271828182, I don't think you are prejudiced, I think you keep hitting the nail on the head each time!!! ForrestLane42 19:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

But still no source, sigh. I appreciate the difficulty, I haven't been able to find one either. Cheers, Eleuther 00:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sheesh. It's not that difficult to find a source: type an exact phrase search for "philosophy is what philosophers do" into Google Books and, presto, you have multiple sources, for all that that's worth. Some are (understandably) critical, but several are accepting, including a Well-Known Author, Bryan Magee.

I'm not trying to push a POV definition of philosophy, by the way. In fact, my intent here has been to sidestep the endlessly contentious conceptual debates (just see the Wikipedia page for "philosophy") and aim for a practical, operational definition. I fully realize (as I have repeatedly stressed above) that the university does not have a monopoly on philosophy, any more than it does on any field of study or science. There are, e.g., astronomers and mathematicians who are not professors, and they certainly are astronomers and mathematicians. How do we tell? Well, we look and see if their results are accepted by professional bodies and journals, or if their work is discussed by other experts in the field. If it is, we call that person a mathematician or an astronomer, regardless of whether they live in isolation in the Russian hinterlands or not. Nietzsche is a perfect example. Wilber, however, fails this simple, pragmatic test. I'll also note that this definition is falsifiable -- if someday a bunch of articles on A Brief History of Everything start flooding The Monist, I'd reverse my classification. But I'm not holding my breath. 271828182 01:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I get the joke, I'm not totally obtuse! Though sometimes I wonder. A philosopher is someone who does philosophy, and philosophy is what philosophers do, tra-la. You can have both those statements, but I don't think you can treat them both as definitions — one of the terms has to be defined externally. The usual approach is to define philosophy, and then to say that a philosopher is a person who does it. You seem to advocate defining philosopher first, in terms of some kind of social sanction regarding journals and associations, and then philosophy is the stuff that such people do. That's okay too, I just wish you could cite a philosopher of some weight who advocates that position.

(The google book search you suggested was interesting but not very helpful, since it returned only one or two lines of text around the requested phrase in each book, so it's impossible to tell what the authors are actually saying. Similarly for The Monist — maybe you should modify your operant definition to say that a philosopher is a person whose computer allows access to the text of The Monist ... which leaves me out).

Separately, you've buttressed your argument with a number of mixed examples, so here's some mixed response:

• Nietzche was an academic, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
• Reich was a respected psychologist and psychoanalyst until he lost it in his later years. (PS. I asked a Physics Ph.D. friend about Reich, and he said sure Reich was a physicist — a flawed one, to be sure, but he did experiments, so he was a physicist.)
• Hubbard was a minor science fiction writer who embarked on a second career as a more-or-less self-admitted con man. An interesting boundary case, but you shouldn't base your whole argument on him.
• Velikovsky was also a nut, in hindsight, but we tend to forget how young a science astronomy is. In 1950, the calculations proving the long-term stability of the planetary orbits were still being done, Venus was still estimated to be a wet tropical planet, etc. Even so, I read his book (ca. 1970) to be science fiction, not science, and I suspect most people did so.
• Arthur Koestler may be a more relevant example. He seems to have had no more academic credentials than Wilber, though he had a much more eventful life. Anyhow, calling him a philosopher doesn't seem to be controversial.

Best regards, Eleuther 14:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you asked for a response to James. I responded. You asked for sources; I gave you sources. A google book search gives lots of leads; take them to a good university library and you can unearth the rest of the context. And that's only one phrase. If I were being paid for this, I could think of others and systematically work through the sources. As it is, some philosophers might not care much for this definition, since it's extensional and pragmatic rather than intensional and conceptual. But then, that's the price you pay for avoiding the thorny POV issues.

As for the specific examples:

Nietzsche was (briefly) an academic, but not a professional philosopher; he was a classicist by training.

Do physicists use Reich's work? Write articles about it for professional journals? No, so one physicist's generous expansion of his definition of "physicist" doesn't hold much weight. (Shall I call up my buddy who's a managing experimental physicist at SLAC for a dissenting opinion?) Remember, the intent of the definition is to avoid the subjectivity of conceptual definitions in favor of citable sources like articles and books.

You are awfully dismissive of Hubbard and Velikovsky, without any real argument or sources. I'm sure the magic of the internet could turn up advocates who'd defend their theories as science. (In the case of Hubbard, there'd be lots, some of them happy to sue.) Now, I agree with you that they are not scientists, but cranks. But how do we make that judgment? I don't think it's because you or I have pored over the texts of Dianetics or Worlds in Collision. It's because, as a matter of practical timesaving, you and I have noticed that no professional astronomers or psychologists take their work seriously. I humbly suggest that, as a matter of consistency, you extend the same principle to the evaluation of Ken Wilber's oeuvre as philosophy.

Although I like Koestler's The Sleepwalkers quite a bit, I don't consider him a philosopher (again, using my proposed functional definition), and the Wikipedia article doesn't call him one. It says that he wrote "social philosophy", but this is pretty vague and the only reference to philosophy I can see in the article. Certainly in my career in philosophy, I can't recall anyone referring to him as a philosopher. The "British philosophers" tag isn't justified AFAICT. "Polymath" and "writer" are much better fits.

Best, 271828182 21:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, 271828182, per his article, Nietzche was a professor of philology at Basel for 11 years before giving it up for health reasons, which is hardly briefly.

As for Reich, I may have failed to convey the humorous tone of my friend's remark. In a sense he was trying to do the same kind of thing you are — offering an operant definition of physicist (in his case) rather than a substantive one. He also told an amusing story about how he and a fellow student actually built some orgone boxes (this would be in a 1960s time frame) and tried to duplicate Reich's results, but failed. This was unpublished (they were in high school), but I imagine established physicists did much the same thing at the time, just to see if there might be some substance to the furor. There wasn't, and that, not Reich's social standing, is why he is not cited today in physics journals. (Or rather, perhaps I should say that Reich's current social standing is a consequence of the fact that his experiments could not be duplicated...? In any case, the point is that his physics was flawed, not that his social standing was flawed — his social standing was apparantly quite high until he fell off the edge.)

I haven't read Dianetics, but I did read Battlefield Earth, which was enough. I also read Worlds in Collision, and found it fun, but it didn't occur to me even then, in its heyday, that people might take it seriously as science. (As I recall he got most of it from the Bible, rather than from looking through a telescope, i.e. he didn't really claim to be an astronomer.) I was more a fan of the Lensman series.

I haven't read The Sleepwalkers, but I've read The Lotus and the Robot and The Ghost in the Machine and The Act of Creation — all clear works of philosophy. (Close your eyes, empty your mind while counting 100 slow breaths, imagine Ph.D. after Koestler's name, then think purely of the texts of the books as things in isolation, and you will see what I mean.)

Getting back on point, my remark about philosophy being what's left after science has been subtracted was my own feeble attempt to repeat an idea that I thought I was a commonplace. I didn't find the James source until a few days later, and what he says is a great deal more inclusive and interesting than what I said. In other words, you've responded to me, but not really to James. No need to belabor this, I would just recommend that you read and enjoy James's chapter on the subject if you ever come across it. (I haven't been able to find it online; it's in the Library of America volume of his later works.)

As for the idea that philosophy is whatever is done by people who have been socially sanctioned as philosophers — I asked for a notable source for this, and you've given me some leads that you think might help me to research the question in a good university library. Well, thanks for that! I'll keep my eyes out the next time I'm in such a place. In the meantime, pardon me for treating this as an admission that you don't have an actual source you can cite.

There's no real need to continue this, i.e. I'm not planning to edit the article to say that Wilber is a philosopher or a Tralfamadorian or anything else, in the absence of consensus. I thought it might be useful to move the discussion out of the area of individual rhetoric and into a discussion of sources, but I guess I was just being obtuse. Sorry about that, and thanks for the enjoyable dialog! Eleuther 19:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nietzsche's Basel teaching duties were slight by modern standards: I think the most he ever taught were 12 students in a class, he more typically taught two to four students, and his offerings were frequently cancelled for lack of interest. He took multiple semester-long leaves for poor health from 1875 on, and resigned completely in 1879. Maybe not "brief", but certainly not lengthy. And he was definitely not a professional philosopher, which has been my whole point in him forward as an example.

When you say "the point is that his physics was flawed, not that his social standing was flawed" you appear to misunderstand me. I have not argued that the socio-professional standing alone determines the philosopher (or the physicist), rather that the standing is a reflection of, or a shorthand for, the achievement. You and I have not tested Reich's orgone theory ourselves -- we take the word of professional physicists that it is bad. Likewise, why don't you take the word of professional philosophers that Wilber's work isn't worthy of notice? In any case, I'd suggest it is appropriate for an encyclopedia, which isn't supposed to make the judgments, to reflect the best evidence of expert consensus.

College libraries being on holiday, I strolled through two used bookstores, and found Koestler's The Act of Creation and The Roots of Coincidence (neither, btw, shelved in 'Philosophy', but in psychology and parapsychology/occult respectively). Neither read like philosophy (no matter how hard I squinted). Not crank material, but, much as I remembered The Ghost in the Machine, almost entirely psychology. Koestler's stuff is much closer to pop-science or meta-scientific speculation (a la some of the works of Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, E.O. Wilson, and Richard Dawkins) than it is to philosophy.

Finally, I never claimed to have a source, nor do I think citing a source about this definition is important or decisive, since (in this example) it's bound to be strongly POV. If you want sources, why stop with James? You can get dozens of different definitions of philosophy from hundreds of sources, some thoughtful, some terrible. So what good would a discussion of sources do? We'd still have to sort it out. I am suggesting that, instead of trying to define "what philosophy is", the best Wikipedia can do is highlight the NPOV fact that the overwhelming consensus of experts in the field called philosophy almost totally ignore Wilber's work, and draw from that the conclusion that Wilber is only a "philosopher" in the same sense that someone like Hubbard is a "psychologist". 271828182 02:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't plan to continue this, but you've left me slack-jawed. Are you really expelling not just Koestler, but also Gould and Dawkins and Wilson from the sacred glade? I assume also people like Penrose and Bohr, etc? Not to mention the entire discipline of philology? I will have to think about this for a few days, then maybe I will have something to add. Until then, best wishes for a happy and prosperous New Year, Eleuther 14:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be misunderstanding each other, since I have no "sacred glade" attitude of the sort you ascribe to me. I am thinking, as a matter of simple description, that calling Gould or Dawkins (or Penrose, or Bohr) "philosophers" would be a misuse of plain English. Imagine: "allow me to introduce the philosopher, Richard Dawkins". That would induce quite a bit of jaw-slacking. In fact, we could test that: add the word "philosopher" to the Wikipedia entry for Stephen Jay Gould or Richard Dawkins and see how that goes down. And philology is not, and never has been, a branch of philosophy. In 19th century Germany, it was what we would today call "classics" (i.e., ancient Greek and Latin language and literature). 271828182 17:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me for saying sacred glade, I keep forgetting how humorless you people are. I meant to say The Monist, of course. Eleuther 18:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So I take it you have no substantive rejoinder to my reductio here? If I had wanted to make jokes, I could have pointed out your ignorance of the meaning of the word "philology" much less gently. 271828182 19:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me again, but I understand the boundaries of philology fairly well ... and physics was part of philosophy as recently as Newton's time, so to say that philology never was ... well you may want to qualify that. Eleuther 03:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to go back before the late 18th-century, then, sure, you can show that everything, including physics and mathematics, is "philosophy". But then you are ignoring the practical context of the discussion entirely in favor of pedantry. Who's being humorless now? 271828182 15:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, to dispose of the simpler issues,

• Nietsche was, is, and always will be an academic darling — claiming he is not, or that he was uncredentialed, is silly.
• Hubbard was a unique situation. If you think Wilber is running a similarly cynical, pseudo-religious con, you should say that directly, rather than continuing to imply it by association. If so, and if you can source it, a section can be added to the article for the allegation. If not, you should drop it..
• I know you "never claimed to have a source" — that's my point too. I've asked you repeatedly for a source, other than your own rhetoric, nicely formed as it is, and the result so far has been — zilch.
• You state the underlying issue excellently as, "why don't you take the word of professional philosophers that Wilber's work isn't worthy of notice?" To this I reply:
  • The idea of professional philosophers is invidious.
  • The idea of not worthy of notice is very different from false. It means, "I refuse to think about it," rather than, "I can disprove it."

More to come ... Eleuther 17:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• You are missing the point about Nietzsche. I know perfectly well that he was an academic, and have never claimed otherwise (are you reading what I'm writing?). The point is that he never took a degree in philosophy (like Ken Wilber). Nonetheless, it is appropriate to call him a philosopher (in, say, a Wikipedia article). Why? Because his works are extensively studied and discussed by the community of experts in the field called "philosophy". I am trying to illustrate how my proposed operational definition fits with usage.
• L. Ron Hubbard published several books presenting a supposedly profound theory of the mind which purports to supersede existing scientific theories of consciousness, which have sold lots of copies, and have numerous supporters, despite universal disinterest in said books among academic experts. That is an exact parallel with Ken Wilber's claim to fame. There is no need for me to source this, as (1) it isn't part of the article, it's part of this talk page discussion as an example of a parallel case of inappropriate nomenclature, and (2) the relevant parallel is undeniably true.
• As I said above, citing a source defining philosophy is futile, since it will not reflect any sort of expert consensus. You can find dozens of different definitions of philosophy. Instead, I'm proposing an operational definition that would be based on NPOV facts, and I'm supporting my case, not through mere "rhetoric", but with reasoning and concrete examples showing how calling Wilber a philosopher would invite multiple parallel abuses of nomenclature. None of these you have managed to gainsay. So (to write like you) shall I take this as an admission of the bankruptcy of your position?
• The "idea of professional philosophers" may be invidious, but, even if that is true, so what? There are professional philosophers, whether you like it or not, just as there are professional physicists, professional mathematicians, etc. You acknowledge that professional physicists know more about physics than you do, yes? Will you make a parallel admission about philosophy?
• You are right that "not worthy of notice" ≠ "false". However, "not worthy of notice" need not mean willful ignorance, either. It can mean "it's so vague and untestable that it could never be proven false or true" or "it's buzzword-laden banalities" or whatever. After all, the vast majority of physicists have not actually read or tested Reich's or Velikovsky's theories. Nonetheless, I imagine you would not say that the community of physicists are pigheadedly "refusing to think about" orgone energy. I offer you the following argument (not rhetoric): if Wilber's theories were philosophy, then professional philosophers would take notice. You can execute the modus tollens yourself. 271828182 19:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I submit that I believe this article is too long for an encyclopedia. The article on Gandhi is only a little longer than this article currently is! I've removed the "stages of development" stub section, reference to it, the "evolution of his work" section (all author's work evolves: this is not notable), collapsed a quote down, and a few other minor things. These seemed simple and not too contentious, and I will defend these cuts. To cut further, I recommend the following for removal, but would like to discuss it here first:

• current work - Let's wait for his new ideas to be published, see if they are notable, then add them to his profile if they are. At the very least, the quote should be removed: it's too much detail without any possible references since the book is not out yet.
• the forum post quote under "Wilber on Darwinism" - again, too much detail, esp. as it is contradicted in the next sentence (!). We should be summarizing, not quoting.
• the biography should be shortened to about half the current length, which I think can be done with judicious editing and without affecting the quality of the article. I don't have time right now, but perhaps I'll take a stab at it later, if there are others in agreement that it is too long. Pro crast in a tor 16:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the evolution of his work should be incorporated into the biography. It is a self-description and can be presented as such. I tried to get all of the nuances into Wilber's stance on Darwinism; hence the quotation. I would prefer for some of the material to be split out using summary style rather than deleted altogether. "Current work" is now a bit of a misnomer now that Integral Spirituality has been released. Ideally, someone would update the section with a description of that material. — goethean ॐ 16:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Pro crast in a tor, especially on the Wilber on Darwinism, you have supported what I have been saying for weeks on that section. Wilber is certainly no Gandhi! -16:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42

Goethean, I believe that you're working against your interest in Mr. Wilber by trying to include too much information about Mr. Wilber's life and thinking. By being too long and too detailed, the result is that fewer people will read the full article, and his thinking will have less of an impact on society. The first time I came across this article, I only read the first two screens of it, which didn't even get me to the "ideas" section, before giving up on the article (and then returning to it later to help with the editing of it). An encyclopedia article should summarize and try to distill the key points, not detail the entire life journey. The reason for this is not that Mr. Wilber is not notable, rather, it gets in the way of seeing the notable ideas he's had. A detailed biography should be linked to in the references section, if one exists.

Put another way, you've got three, maybe four screens to get your reader: make them count, don't try to include everything. And this is why I think the article needs to be shortened, and maintain that the above recommendations are a good start towards getting to an article that people will read. Pro crast in a tor 17:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't oppose shortening the biography. — goethean ॐ 17:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Re-reading your early comment, "Capturing nuances" is most certainly not a feature of an encyclopedia: generally, you or I average folks might have our entire lives brutally condensed down to one sentence with name, year of birth & death, and a reference to our 15 minutes of fame (if that). I'm making an edit that isn't nearly so brutal, but I think will capture salient info. Pro crast in a tor 17:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let me rephrase it. I tried to present Wilber's stance on Darwinism accurately. If you can do that with fewer words, go for it. — goethean ॐ 17:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, cut made. It seems clearer to me now: no comment, takeback of comment, and description of tetra-evolution (which, though it uses the term "evolution", does not appear to refer to darwinian evolution. Pro crast in a tor 17:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also edited his "current work" section to be a bit briefer.

On the flip side, one addition to the article that I'd like to see is a four quadrant graph: I think this would go a long way towards describing what he's getting at. If someone were so inclined, they could get permission from him to reproduce the graph on this page. Comments? Pro crast in a tor 17:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is at AQAL, which used to be part of this article. — goethean ॐ 17:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I, for one, applaud Pro crast in a tor's edit. It retains the sense and makes the article readable. --Backface 19:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I applaud Pro crast in a tor's editing, it is not like the same editing had not occurred before when I did and I got lambbassed by goethean as saying its not readable, I did the same exact things in the wilber/darwin section. How can it be that goethean seems to work in "good faith" with pro crast in a tor, but can not show the same respect to my edits?? I have always tried to be reasonable with goethean, but how can you be reasonable with someone who has reacted with venom towards me in the past. I guess we are all on the green meme and not the second tier! lol... I feel goethean owes me that respect in that the edits pro crast has made are nearly identical but has not shown for the time-being the same courtesy. Pro crast in a tor, I applaud your edits and am not meaning to drag you into the previous edit war with goethean. goethean, I have made more than reasonable edits and you stubborned would not acknowledge their correction or you would automatically revert 3x..... -ForrestLane42 21:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I'm assuming good faith on goethean's part, and when it was a 1-1 deadlock, it's a toss up. Now we have Backface, yourself, myself, and goethean, and a 3-1 decision (as is the case for my most recent edits) makes it clear what a majority thinks is best for the article. Pro crast in a tor 08:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not clear on what you mean Pro crast in a tor, but I also think that a few days does not give clear consensus on these matters IMO. -ForrestLane42 23:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I think the paragraph on Wilber-Combs lattice should either be taken out or reframe, it sounds too technical, something that an intermediate or advanced student of Wilber would only know or left for the interested reader to find out more. It does seem to add to the content of the section.. -ForrestLane42 21:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I'm ambivalent on this point. Normally I wouldn't say anything, but with as much contention as there is around here, thought I'd put it out there. Pro crast in a tor 08:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see the whole section rationalised to be less intricately technical, rahter than point at specific paragraphs to be deleted. Some of the more detailed technical stuff could be moved to AQAL. I'll have a go at it later today. --Backface 14:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pro cast in a tor: While the text related to Adi Da's as an influence on Wilber deserves pruning, your edit which states only that "On several occasions, Wilber has singled out the work of the American-born guru Adi Da" seems to obscure the context and meaning, especially when added to the end of a paragraph about influences on Wilber's "conception of evolution or psychological development". I believe your edit is too severe and glosses over the broader importance of that influence and relationship on the evolution of Wilber's writing, for example: [2],[3]. Also, that influence can be found in Wilber's use of the Da concept of "self contraction" and of Da's defense of his own behavior in Ken's defence of the superiority of "the outlaws, the living terrors, the Rude Boys and Nasty Girls of God realization" if you want enlightenment: [4]. His strong advocacy of "rude" and "nasty" gurus as needful for attaining the goal of enlightenment is controversial and noteworthy since his writings advocate enlightenment as the goal.

Therefore I submit for comments the following proposal:

Influences on Wilber

Wilber's conception of the perennial philosophy has been primarily influenced by Madhyamika Buddhism, particularly as articulated in the philosophy of Nagarjuna.[8] The nondual mysticism of Advaita Vedanta, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Plotinus, and Ramana Maharshi, along with the works of Adi Da, who Wilber has on several occasions singled out for the highest praise, are also strong influences. Wilber has been a dedicated practitioner of Buddhist meditation since his college years, and has studied under some widely recognized Buddhists, such as Dainin Katagiri, Maezumi Roshi, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Kalu Rinpoche, Penor Rinpoche and Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche.

Wilber's conception of evolution or psychological development draws on Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, the great chain of being, German idealism, Erich Jantsch, Jean Piaget, Abraham Maslow, Erik Erikson, Lawrence Kohlberg, Howard Gardner, Clare W. Graves, Robert Kegan and Spiral Dynamics.

Influences on Wilber's conception that those desiring enlightenment should seek out "the outlaws, the living terrors, the Rude Boys and Nasty Girls of God realization" flow from from Zen traditions and his assessment that: "Every deeply enlightened teacher I have known has been a Rude Boy or Nasty Girl".

--Dseer 05:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dseer, hope you don't mind that I moved your comment to the end of this section, it was placed in the middle of an earlier discussion, which was a little confusing.

Anyway, the first two paragraphs you suggested sound great to me, but I'm ambivalent about the third paragraph. It's a nice, shiny new paragraph, and I don't know if it's worth inclusion because it's interesting, or should be omitted to aid in reducing the length of the article (which there is strong support for, judging from the ). I think I just like it because it's not just a list of names, making it more interesting for people that don't recognize all those names (which, I would guess, is 95%+ of article readers). Does anyone else have feedback? Pro crast in a tor 09:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciate the kind response. I'm all for shortening the article, I just want to cover the significant and controversial elements of Wilber's thinking. In the proposed third paragraph, I tried to present a NPOV approach to one of the more controversial aspects of Wilber's teachings, his concept of enlightenment and the qualities of those he asserts are enlightened. Wilber advocates an evolving enlightenement as the pinacle of human development. His stance on enlightenment, and the prevalance and superiority of "rude" or "nasty" gurus he considers enlightened, is in direct opposition to a long standing integral principle in non-dualist traditions. From descriptions of the enlightened in ancient texts like Tripura Rahashya ("All perfect Sages are one"), and Pantanjali, through the great Zen Master Bankei, up to recent figures like Ramana Maharshi and Nisagadatta, one finds scant support for Wilber's ideas. For example, Ramana Maharshi (who Wilber calls the greatest realizer of the 20th Century) states that Buddha's enlightenment was identical to his, and asked about the qualities of the enlightened, he quoted the following passage from Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras: "Friendship, kindness, happiness and such other bhavas (attitudes) become natural to them. Affection towards the good, kindness towards the helpless, happiness in doing good deeds, forgiveness towards the wicked, all such things are natural characteristics of the jnani." Whether Wilber is really in a position to determine who is enlightened as he asserts is controversial, and I've tried to let Wilber speak for himself there. --Dseer 21:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Pro crast in a tor, nice work cleaning up a lot of language. Some subsequent repairs are inevitable, and that process seems to have gone civilly too, so thanks to everyone! I especially won't miss the It should be noted... sentences (thanks to goethean here too) — tendentiousness belongs on the talk page, if anywhere; it's nice to get it out of the text.

I won't comment further on content unless a war breaks out, except a few small points:

• It should be made clear that Boomeritis is a novel, so I think I will add that word back.
• It would be nice to restore the collaboration with Cornel West, if only to show that Wilber is not 100% absolutely and perfectly rejected by the professionals, only maybe 99.98% ... but I'll leave that to someone else.

Does anyone have any response to the proposal that our goal should not just be shortening, but also sourcing? Cheers, Eleuther 01:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Eleuther, yes, I expect more repairs, too, but I think the article looks much better now. I'm done with my round of editing, and since no one else is doing major editing from what I can see, I removed the "under development" and "neutrality" tags. I think it's OK to do this, right? I'm not sure if there's a process, but things have been pretty tame recently. I lean towards leaving out the matrix quote, as the article is just at the right length now and it's mentioned in his list of works already, but either way is fine by me. Pro crast in a tor 07:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Pro crast in a tor, fine by me, but all parties have not been heard from yet, so hold onto your hat! You've been a big help so far, please stay around. Eleuther 07:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please place back the under development and neutrality tags clearly I think this article is far from being finished and having a NPOV. Too early to remove. ForrestLane42 10:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

OK, ForrestLane42, I put back in the "under development" tag, though the "neutrality" tag seemed redundant so I didn't put that in. Are you sure that it's needed? If so, please feel free to add it back in, I just don't see the need.

Eleuther, I'm going to be around less the next few weeks, so my input in this discussion will be minimal. Pro crast in a tor 12:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry still think it should have neutrality tag, though I get your point, but I am looking more towards the uninformed reader.So for now it should stay. ForrestLane42 18:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Dseer, I saw your Wilberian influence section above, I dont care for the last paragraph - bout living terrors, etc. I just think it is too brash, although Wilber comes off brash at times, I am not sure that his entry should have a hint of it. ForrestLane42 18:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

A self-described storyteller and mapmaker- this phrase was reinstated and I don't see the logic of having it. Are there any other biographies on wikipedia that have listed as their jobs a self-described storyteller and mapmaker. It seems juvenile at best. I am taknig them out and going back to "Working outside of academia'ForrestLane42 18:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

• Hi, ForrestLane42, I didn't like that phrase either, thanks for removing it. As for the bibliography, it should be inclusive by nature — if it really gets to be too long, it can be moved to a separate article. Eleuther 09:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the matter of bibliography, I am a deletionist by nature, I don't favor putting it into a page onto its own, I dont think we have to list every single book an author has written, but only the ones that are seen as major works, or are pertinent to the article at hand. I looked at Plato's page and noticed that Wilber's page is slightly larger than his, now no one could disagree that Plato far out ranks Wilber. ForrestLane42 16:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Can we shorten this as well? Wilber has written so many books, etc and we have a section of those who have written about Wilber. I looked at Plato's entry, and he doesn't nearly have as much. Can we condense the two sections into one at least and maybe highlight Wilber's major works - i.e. Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, etc?? What do you think Eleuther, pro crast in tor, and dseer and backface? ForrestLane42 18:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I recommend that the Bill Clinton quotation be restored that Forrestlane42 deleted with the following edit summary: deleted clinton comment, only placed in for self-promotion for wilber. First of all, that edit summary does not assume good faith. Second of all, it is not your typical new age writer that can boast a quotation from a US president. I submit that the quotation is highly notable, was not placed for promotional purposes, and should be restored. — goethean ॐ 21:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By your own words, it shows bias, it shows how it is put in there to advance Wilber's cause, it should be DELETED again you fail to show good faith with me. I gave a perfectly valid explanation for the deletion. Having someone like Clinton advertise for Wilber, is clearly used to boose one's image of Wilber. Does no one not see that is clearly self-promotional purposes and not meant to educate those who do not know Wilber?? REVERT to my deletion, please Eleauther... -ForrestLane42 21:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Seconded, the Clinton quote seems like name-dropping to me, and does not add enough value to the article to justify the length. Pro crast in a tor 08:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing wrong with leaving the quote there. It is verifiable, relevant, in-line with npov and nothing to do with self-promotion. Apart from anything else it is quite interesting--Backface 14:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

It seems premature to make this decision now, because of the implications of using that quote in that context, until the article is fleshed out more. Why? Look at the quote itself. "If ordinary people don’t perceive that our grand ideas are working in their lives, then they can’t develop the higher level of consciousness, if I can use a kind of touchy-feely word, that American philosopher Ken Wilber wrote a whole book about, called A Theory of Everything. He said, you know, the problem is the world needs to be more integrated but it requires a consciousness that’s way up here, and an ability to see beyond the differences among us". Right away, you have a popular ex-President defining Ken Wilber as a philosopher, and that has an impact on the writer and/or philosopher discussion. In reality, all Clinton is really doing is saying is he agrees on a macro scale with an idea he read in Ken Wilber's book, and it is that Clinton liked the idea and used it that makes in noteworthy. I think at this stage it makes more sense as a reference or possibly a wikiquote than in the body of the text, because it is noteworthy that he was referenced by Clinton, so I would not delete all information regarding the quote, but I'm not convinced yet based on where the article seems to be headed it belongs in the text of the article where it could give it more weight than deserved. --Dseer 17:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is name-dropping clear and simple. The fact that Clinton said doesn't mean much presidents can be wrong in their information, plus the strong likihood exists that it was not from Clinton, but from his speech writers who wrote the quote. -ForrestLane42 22:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

There seems to be a dispute over whether to include Youtube links to videos. The first question should be: "are the videos copyrighted?" If they are, and if they have not been released under a free license, then WP:EL#Restrictions on linking indicates that we should not link to them. The guideline is that we should avoid linking to copyright violations. Are there other issues as well? -Will Beback · † · 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will Beback, I can not verify if they copyrighted, I would assume so. Besides the point, the point is that the videos have nothing whatsoever to do with Wilber or his ideas, do you care how second-tier people have sex? Do u think you would see this in any other encyclopedia? No these are just there to sex up Wilber's page. And if no one can verify it, goethean, then STRONG DELETE -ForrestLane42 00:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

The sex video has been deleted. I recommend keeping the other video: it was uploaded by "Integral Naked" and is listed as the director, so I'm assuming that it was released by them for viewing online. It was interesting to me to see him talk "in the flesh", and think it is worth a one-line link near the end of the article. Pro crast in a tor 08:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify: the sex video is no longer hosted on YouTube, having been removed by the director, Integral Naked, who is indeed the creator of the content. I added back in the existing link to a video of Mr. Wilber, as I found it note worthy to see him in person. Pro crast in a tor 03:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I continue to protest inclusion of How to stage 2nd Tier protest, while it is entertaining and interesting, its not encyclopedic material, its there to sex up the page, if you look at the youtube page, there are many other Wilberian videos, are we to include the rest? Where does it end? There are some things that are best for the interested reader to research on their own, an encyclopedia is meant IMO to briefly summarize the person or idea and give some starting points for further research. I think people are savy enough to research on youtube to find if Wilber is there or not, I mean if can find on youtube, a dog doing tricks, or someone doing amateur comedy bit, you will find Wilber, etc, etc. I ask in this light to see that even without the copyright issues, the larger point is the case made above. Does anyone see my point?? -ForrestLane42 03:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

ForrestLane42, I agree that an encyclopedia is meant to "give some starting points for further research", as you put it. As such, a single link to a single video to let the interested reader know that there are videos out there, filed at the end of the article under "external links", does not seem at all inappropriate to me. After all, how best to know someone that to see them "in the flesh", hear their voice, etc? Which video it is doesn't matter to me, only that it's just one. I maintain that a single link to a video is good for the article.Pro crast in a tor 05:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two cents, but I have been listening to ForrestLane42 and Pro crast in a tor, and I can see your point Pro crast, but I think ForrestLane42 is right on this one, an interested reader is certainly going to be savvy enough to look on his own, putting a link from youtube does sound like a way to sex up a page to me. just my thoughts.... -Truthiness406 16:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)Truthiness406[reply]

Time for a mediation summary, eleuther, before we descend into chaos... --Backface 14:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've been swamped with work and haven't managed to keep up. Things seemed to be going productively with you all for a few days, so I started to hope I wouldn't be needed, but maybe no such luck. Let me study it for a few hours and get back to you -- thanks for being civil, all of you that have been! Eleuther 03:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some unorganized points in no particular order. First, as to sources:

• I agree with Backface that blogs, in general, are not good sources for this kind of article. I would make an exception for bloggers that are particularly eminent for some reason, but that would have to be justified.
• I don't go so far, however, as to say that only books should be admitted as sources. Reputable journals and newspapers and magazines (and their online presences) should be respected, as well as things like Citebase and university course catalogs and other serious online material.
• I may be too old to be saying this, but YouTube is worse than blogs -- it's just as unedited and unreviewed, and even more ephemeral and (I would say) intentionally unserious (i.e. much of its content is edited/faked for non-documentary, farcical reasons). I think there would have to be a really compelling reason to cite something from there. (To be clear, I don't object to citing video, but it should be from a weightier source – the YouTube citations should be removed.)

As for recent edits:

• Hello, Pro crast in a tor, I'm glad to see a new con struc tive voice here.
• The recent edit wars seem to have been conducted reasonably civilly – good for you all.

As for the article's content and organization:

• The goal should be more shortening. (If you think this statement is amusing, you may have been born in the South like me.)
• The introduction is about the right length, but it could be more factual. In particular, I continue to think that describing Wilber primarily as a writer is weasly, but I will argue that elsewhere, not here (it's my personal opinion, not my mediator opinion, and for the time being I don't think I should be editing the article myself).
• The Ideas section, of course, is where the heavy lifting occurs. This section should be shortened considerably. Partly, this can be done by separating sceptical viewpoints into a separate Criticism section, and partly by collapsing some of the text into references to other sources. But the main problem is that the section reads like (and is) a collection of sentences that have been inserted at different times for different reasons by different editors, so that the overall organization has been lost.
• Our main problem, as I see it, is therefore to figure out how to organize the Ideas section so that it makes organic sense – i.e. so that its concepts and examples follow logically and chronologically from each other. The best, encyclopedic, way to do this, I think, would to be to source the discussion externally, based on one or more relevant review articles, if these can be found. In other words, we're really not supposed to be inventing this stuff ourselves.
• I don't think it's a problem if the Ideas section is based on sources sympathetic to Wilber, as long as we present the material in a non-proselytizing manner, and allow properly sourced criticism in a separate section. The same consideration is owed to any philosopher – present the ideas in their own terms in one place, and the criticisms in a later place.
• If we can't find an agreeable external source for the organization of the Ideas section, then we will have to embark on the problem of forming our own outline, but (as I said), I don't think this should really be our role.
• I will weigh in with more on this subject later, but for now I hope this will be enough to start some discussion.

Eleuther 05:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Eleuther, nice to me et yo u too.  :) I'm in agreement on most of your points, the one disagreement being the specific Youtube link. I think Youtube should be treated just like a blog, with a big "it depends". In this case, the source of the video is the institute that Mr. Wilber founded, and they appear to be using Youtube as a free repository/hosting site for their videos rather than hosting on their own site. As such, I maintain that the video is a worthwhile link to. Youtube, as a site, is neither good nor bad IMHO, it's just that it usually has insipid content uploaded haphazardly. If you look at the "Integral Naked" director (not random uploader, but "director"), you'll see that the uploaded content is not haphazard.

As far as the rest of the article, I agree further shortening is warranted, and that the ideas section is where the heavy lifting needs to happen. I don't really know this material, and don't have ideas on how to proceed at this time. Your comments are much appreciated. Pro crast in a tor 07:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Pro, I don't have any objection to a YouTube link in the See Also area like now, as long as it's on-topic and not silly of course. I would just be wary of using YouTube as a source, because links to there tend to evaporate, at least that's been my experience. Eleuther 00:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chaps - let's not have a template war. Can I suggest a nice cup of tea and a sit down. There are more important things to be doing --Backface 14:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that if the "ideas" section must be chopped, that material is moved to a subarticle on Wilber's philosophy. This new article can be merged with AQAL and the pre/trans fallacy. — goethean ॐ 15:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

goethean are you proposing two articles for Wilber now? -Truthiness406 16:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)Truthiness406[reply]

Hi, "Truthiness," I think he's proposing reducing the three existing articles to two. Eleuther 12:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, goethean, I'm not really proposing chopping anything. I'm just hoping that, with some reorganization, the section would become shorter naturally, and would also be more accessible to people coming in from the outside. Cheers, Eleuther 11:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eluether, being an inclusionist, I am particularly interested in maximizing NPOV, and the idea that blogs can be appropriate depending on what is available, and in particular that when the subject of an article opens the door by using self-published materials like a blog to communicate ideas and respond to critics, critical blogs, if they are the best available sources and the person who wrote them is noteworthy relative to the subject and can be identified, can be considered. You say: "I agree with Backface that blogs, in general, are not good sources for this kind of article. I would make an exception for bloggers that are particularly eminent for some reason, but that would have to be justified."

In this case, the subject is a New Age writer not recognized as an authority by mainstream acadamia, and some of his critics are part of the Integral Movement or New Agers but do not see him as their leader, which triggers some caveats in the Wikipedia guidelines. because of dispute between inclusionists and deletionists which occurs on this and related sites, I have outlined the Wikipedian justification Wikipedian Mr Kazlev User:M_Alan_Kazlev and I have agreed upon a frameework regarding the inclusionist response in these matters as follows:

WP:V#Self states that: "Material from self-published sources, and published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources in articles about the author(s) of the material, so long as it is: relevant to their notability; it is not contentious; it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it." But, the dearth of academic consideration as a New Age writer and thinker makes the arguments in Ken Wilber's publications themselves of dubious reliablity. Ken Wiber's blog is contentious, arguably self-serving, and makes unverified claims about third parties. Additionally, WP:RS states: "The websites and publications of political parties and religious groups (or websites of their critics or opponents) should be treated with caution, although neither political affiliation nor religious belief is in itself a reason not to use a source." Wilber is best described as a New Ager who advocates a form of Buddhism and his organization has a quasi religious function, complete with a number of gurus and spiritual teachers, and he himself gives "transmissions". Therefore, both the advocacy and critical publications and websites related to must be treated with appropriate caution, with a NPOV result in mind. Because WP:V, WP: NPOV and WP:NOR complement each other, "they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another". Relying only on published material of dubious reliablity from an academic position while excluding all blog material from known, noteworthy critics familiar with the subject (to whom Ken Wilber has responded on his blogs and thus opened the door), when that is the best available source, impacts NPOV. I think that selected critical blogs of former associates and recognized integral thinkers within the Integral community may meet the "particularly eminent" criteria relative to this subject alone for inclusion where other sources are not available and where the material is not libelous. The alternative view, which assumes that there is a ready economically justifiable market for published books critical of a New Age writer like Wilber, simply isn't realistic. Even Wilber's first book got turned down by every publisher before the Theosophical Society publishing arm took it on. Again, the lack of formally published, academically reviewed material is an unavoidable by product of the relative lack of mainstream academic interest in Wilber himself. That is why I continue to urge that we need to balance WP:V, WP: NPOV and WP:NOR here, both in letter and in spirit. I hope you take some of this into consideration. Respectfully, --Dseer 08:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Dseer, thanks — you addressed this to me, but I hope the others have read it too. Your first sentence hits the two main nails squarely. I'm an inclusionist too, but this obliges one to be very careful about NPOV. I also agree with your interpretation of "particularly eminent" to include selected respectable sources from within the integral community — excluding them arbitrarily would be a POV problem in itself. Thanks for thinking this out in more detail than I necessarily did when I wrote the comment! Eleuther 11:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's unfortunate that this needs to said, but many of the footnotes have now been deleted and replaced by "citation needed" templates. Please don't delete references unless you are deleting all usages of it in the article. — goethean ॐ 19:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of integrity, please don't revert my edits without a proper discussion...we are still in the midst of "perfecting" this entry...intepretation was placed because Wilber takes from a variety of sources - cherrypicking them to suit his worldview. For example, he sources Freud yet most of the psychology community has surpassed Freud (though I am an avid reader of Freud). The influence section adds Erikson, though I have yet to see him use Erikson in his writings. He makes passing references to many psychologists but in the core of his thought. So in the end interpretation is a more than neutral word, or u can use "understanding" in its place.

as for goethean's comment "his work draws on his own interpertation? whose dosn't" - well when u draw from outside your field of expertise - you are interpreting data to suit your own needs, for the layperson coming to Ken Wilber entry, this would not be obvious. His work at best is all subjective, and seeks to understand consciousness according to his own worldview beliefs, which can never be verified by the traditional scientific method - that Wilber so despises as "reductive." By adding interpretion we are letting the layperson know that he is taking the acculated data of psychology, etc and using it to his own ends and does not necessarily mean that he has every theory of psychology at his disposal and is not bending the data to his own end. ForrestLane42 16:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

intepretation was placed because Wilber takes from a variety of sources - cherrypicking them to suit his worldview.

Name a writer who doesn't.

He makes passing references to many psychologists but in the core of his thought.

This sentence fragment does not make any sense. If you expect people to respond to your comments, I suggest that you make a more concerted attempt to write in standard written English.

as for goethean's comment "his work draws on his own interpertation? whose dosn't" - well when u draw from outside your field of expertise - you are interpreting data to suit your own needs, for the layperson coming to Ken Wilber entry, this would not be obvious.

More nonsense.

His work at best is all subjective

I'm not terribly interested in your personal opinion of Wilber's work. If you don't have a reference to back it up, you can omit stuff like this from future comments. — goethean ॐ 16:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why has reference to Jeff Meyerhoff's scholarly critique been deleted? The whole page is starting to look like a sales pitch put out by the Integral Institute. M Alan Kazlev 22:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was deleted on October 28th by SSS108 with the description "Removing tons of original research, blogs, multiple links to one site, critical POV and references not in compliance with WP:BLP WP:RS WP:NOR)". Here's a link to the edit

It seems to me that none of the stated reasons are valid reason for removing the Meyerhoff link. I haven't followed any of the other deleted links to see what they contain, but given one incorrect deletion, it seems a good chance there are more poor deletions. I'm glad you mentioned the Meyerhoff article, as it's the best critique I've read yet, and I would like to see this re-added to the article as the criticism section seems small for ideas as large as Mr. Wilber's. Pro crast in a tor 02:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. SSS108 has some sort of trip against me because I have supported critics of his guru Sathya Sai Baba. In fact I myself used to be a devotee of Sai Baba for many years, and when the SSB controversy came up I had long email discussions with SSS108 as well as with ex-devotees, before coming to my own conclusions about all this (all this is documented on my website). So he may have seen my name associated with some of these edits and decided to remove them. In any case, he knows absolutely squat about Wilber (check his user contributions). Okay, I'm going to restore all that material he deleted, and I'll leave it to the rest of you guys to decide if you think it should be kept or not. M Alan Kazlev 03:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unhappy with re-adding all this material, because a lot of it seems to be sourced on contentious blogs that don't seem to be proper Wikipedia sources. SSS108 did some good work to weed this stuff out, whether or not there was a sinister side agenda. My first instinct was to revert the whole change, and ask for the pieces to be re-added individually with proper sources, but instead I think I'll just remove the pieces that seem bad to me, one by one, over the next few days. If I remove a blog you think should remain, please revert my change and add a discussion here — thanks! Eleuther 03:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's my take, too, as there seems to be more good material here than bad. I removed one link already, and will probably try to find others over the next few days. Pro crast in a tor 11:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that when we conclude editing this page to all parties satisfaction that the tag - Template:Bias Warning should remain since this has been a battleground for integralists and nonintergralists.Please give a yea or nay. ForrestLane42 23:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

If you do that you would have to slap that tag on every controversial page on Wikipedia! Most guru pages for example. Or Darwinism, which the creationists are opposed to. Or political ideologies. M Alan Kazlev 01:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

nay - there hasn't been an edit war in weeks, and it seems unlikely there will be more with the additional people watching this article these days. It may have been appropriate while edit wars were occurring, but not now, and certainly not in perpetuity. Pro crast in a tor 02:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well M Alan, I think that across the line it might not be a bad idea to have such a disclaimer since edit wars do seem to happen around controversial pages. As for Pro crast in a tor, I can see you point, but once everyone finishs with final edits, and goes merrily on this way, I can see people coming and reverting back to their POV pages of Wilber, destroying what was accomplished, I am not an optimist on this matter that people will assume good faith. ForrestLane42 03:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

When we all become satisfied with this page, it is obvious that this tag should be in place since it is a site of FREQUENT edit wars and its obvious that once we conclude the business of editing, someone will come along and revert all the hard work. ForrestLane42 18:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Procrastinator: in response to this edit, I find the deleted text important, because many critics dismiss Wilber's entire worldview without understanding it. Thompson, on the other hand, essentially agrees with Wilber's general perspective, and still thinks that Wilber's work sucks. That's a much more stinging critique IMO. — goethean ॐ 22:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi goethean, I agree that it helps, but it seemed like that sentence was a bit wordy. Perhaps we could just remove the "Cultural historian and poet" part at the beginning? He has a Wikipedia page, so the reader knows that he is wiki-notable, and leave the expounding upon their common admirations. I've made the change, let me know what you think.

Also, I still dislike the last half of the paragraph, where Thompson calls him a "compulsive mapp[er]...", and Wilber saying, "yes, I'm a mapmaker". It doesn't seem like it should be in the criticism section, as they are agreeing, and the words could be used to better effect. However, I'm not exactly sure how to proceed, so I've done nothing so far. Pro crast in a tor 06:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removing "cultural historian" is fine. I think that leaving it in the criticism section is fine, because Thompson is pretty scathing regarding Wilber's scholarship. — goethean ॐ 19:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the word "religious" from the intro. This mischaracterizes Wilber's work. Wilber is as much a writer on psychology, science and philosophy as on religion. A more accurate term would be "mystical" or "spiritual", but even more accurate is to leave it as "...a writer and thinker whose works draws on..." — goethean ॐ 16:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I set off a storm with my edit to the intro, which was the plan. I expected it to be reverted in toto, but that didn't happen — instead the fighting has all been over the first two sentences. Well, good! Here's what I see so far:

• Nobody seems to miss the deleted material, which is good. Maybe I will strike at the biography next.
• Everyone draws on his or her interpretations. This is understood in the 21st century, there's no need to say it explicitly.
• I'm uncomfortable with describing Wilber as New Age in the very first sentence, if he himself disavows the association, as backface has said. But in the absence of concensus on another term, and lacking sources, I'm not going to contest it.

Thanks, everybody! Eleuther 15:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In reference to everyone draws on his or her interpretations, I respectfully disagree. I don't think this is explicit to everyone, those who are well educated yes, but I am not sure of the general lay public. But Eleauther, you know better, and have a justified reason, so I respect your thought on the matter. ForrestLane42 16:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Wouter Hanegraaff in his New Religion and Western Culture (a book I highly recommend, even if it unfortunately leaves out the influence of Eastern Gurus) considers Wilber to be New Age. As Eleuther points out, Wilber himself disagrees with that asessment, which Hanegraaff notes. I also have argued in an online essay that Wilberian Integral theory is indistinguishable from New Age as Hanegraaf defines it (although it may or may not be distinguishable from other definitions of New Age). I would suggest adding a citation to Hanegraaff after the "New Age" categorisaion in the opening category. Better still, qualify it by saying he is "considered New Age" M Alan Kazlev 01:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would leave it alone for now — it's too small an issue to pick over in the Intro. It can be addressed further down someday if necessary. Cheers, Eleuther 14:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree on it being a "small issue", at least not when it's worded the way it is and in the very first sentence of the Wilber entry. The way it's worded now, together with the way the New Age entry is written (should one click through to that article), make it sound like the New Age "movement" is something that Wilber actively ascribes to, which is clearly not the case. I think the intro would be just fine without any reference to New Age, since the next sentence describes what he writes and theorizes about, but at the very least, if the phrase "New Age" does appear in the intro, for the sake of factual accuracy it should be worded something like "...an American theorist and author often (although that in itself is a problematic word, I suppose, so maybe a better adverb could be found) associated with the New Age movement". My point being, I suppose, that positioning "New Age" as an adjective that directly describes what Wilber "is" places an inaccurate (or at least incomplete) label on him while making it sound like it's a key defining characteristic that he himself would agree with. --Grey 15:15, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Grey, welcome to the monkey house. I agree it's not a small issue, I'm only saying it's too small for the first sentence. The problem is that there is a faction here that refuses to allow Wilber to be described in any terms that do not belittle him intellectually. So the choice is between (a) swallowing something like "New Age" in the lede, and haggling about it later, or (b) haggling about it starting with the very first sentence. I prefer (a), haggling later.

Just for fun, I'm editing the sentence now to something more reasonable, so you can appreciate the storm it causes. Eleuther 06:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I like this new version better, but I'm not sure you needed to change "theorist" to "philosopher". You may cause more complaints about that than the removal of "New Age". I realize there are two diametrically opposed camps working on this entry, but I get the impression that the only way that we'll be able to do Wilber justice while remaining neutral is to keep the text as brief and as purely factual (and bland) as possible (while avoiding waffle words, of course). So I would avoid culturally loaded terms like "New Age" or specific labels like "philosopher" or "religious".

BTW, I would also remove all that stuff about Darwin in the science section because it's just too controversial a subject and doesn't really add anything essential to the article. And I agree that the critics section also needs to be whittled way down to just the most reputable ones.--Grey 09:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just two camps, it's a veritable tower of Babel. For myself, I'm not a believer, but I think Wilber deserves a factual and respectful (and shorter) article. And I find a certain hilarity in the idea that modern philosophy needs to be defended from thoughtful outsiders like Wilber, while clowns like <insert your favorite deconstructionist here> are running around inside. So, yes, I'm poking a stick in an anthill, but it's still the proper term. As for Darwin and the critics section, whittle away! The worst that can happen is that you will be reverted and dragged into a pile of endless petty discussion. Cheers, Eleuther 15:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. Eleuther, you continue to misstate and distort my views, while failing to answer any of the substantive arguments I have made rebutting yours. I never said, e.g., that philosophy needs to be defended from Wilber, and interested readers can simply read what I have written on this page to verify that. Instead you resort to strawmen and loaded language such as "petty discussion", by which I suppose you mean "discussion wherein my views are refuted". Whatever. As for reverting "integral philosopher", I have merely noted, as you did earlier, that it is effectively a circular description of Ken Wilber -- not to mention that Wilber refers to it as integral theory, not as integral philosophy. I would be happy with Grey's proposed "often associated with New Age thought" rider, since it is (a) more specific than "religious theorist", "psychological theorist", etc., and (b) can be referenced to the Library of Congress classifications Goethean cited. 271828182 00:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And anyway, I didn't change it to philosopher, I changed it to integral philosopher — specifically because of the dark joy I will get from seeing the term reverted, when used to describe the person who more or less invented the subject area. Eleuther 15:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with either term really. I've got no complaints with the current version ("integral theorist" minus "and author") either. I mean there's not a huge difference between "philosopher" and "theorist", but since Wilber always says that what he's done is created a "map" without its own specific content, I actually think "theorist" is probably closer to being the right term, and "philosopher", if anything, is limiting. --Grey 16:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As expected, integral philosopher is a weasal word and I think escapes a tricky issue altogether, which shouldn't be the approach IMO. I favor "New Age" in the intro even though Wilber does not classify this label as his work, but I think most would classify it as New Age work. I think u have to remove philosopher altogether, integral theorist is much better, please think about reverting...I'm still thinking whether to go through a nother nasty battle with goethean over this ForrestLane42 22:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I don't see how you can say that "philosopher" is a weasel word. It may not be accurate, but it definitely makes a specific statement, which a weasel word, by definition, does not. In any event, I also don't see how you can claim that "most would classify (Wilber's work) as New Age". New Age certainly falls within the scope of his work, but the term most certainly does not accurately define his work. The main thrust of his work is to establish a "map" by which it is possible to integrate... well, everything really, but in a scientific manner that most people would not associate with the New Age movement. Calling him "New Age" in the very first line of the article is severely reductionist for everything else that follows. At most, I would agree to removing "integral" before "theorist", but I will do everything I can to keep anything like "Wilber is a New Age whatever" out of the entry. --Grey 23:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is antedocal, but I have always seen Wilber's books not in the psychology or philosophy section, but in the New Age section ForrestLane42 09:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Border's keeps Integral psychology in psychology. — goethean ॐ 17:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Borders' web site lets you inquire where a book is shelved if it's in stock. According to this, at my local store, pretty much everything in stock by Wilber is under General Metaphysics (including Boomeritis and Integral Psychology), so the shelving may differ from store to store. Eleuther 18:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe your Borders do, or could it be that u rearrange it to be that way.lol...cute reply. every borders and barnesnoble have it in New Age ForrestLane42 17:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

every borders and barnesnoble have it in New Age

Bullshit. Besides, the Library of Congress keeps it at BF311, along with other psychology books. — goethean ॐ 18:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update: the official designation of BF309-499 is: "Consciousness. Cognition Including learning, attention, comprehension, memory, imagination, genius, intelligence, thought and thinking, psycholinguistics, mental fatigue" PDF file This is, obviously, more reliable than the Border's classification, which is based on marketing decisions. — goethean ॐ 18:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

goethean, please refrain from cursing, I should have said every borders and barnesandnoble I've seen put them in the New Age section, in fact in the public libraries I've gone too, its in the New Age/metaphysical section. If you dont refrain from cursing, I'll speak to adminstrators. ForrestLane42 18:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I just looked up 18 of Wilber's books in the Library of Congress. Here are the results:

• Atman Project -- BF701 -- "Psychology: Genetic psychology"
• Boomeritis -- PS3623.152 B66 -- "American literature, Individual authors, 2001-"
• Brief History of everything -- BF1999 "Occult science"
• collected works -- BF311 -- "Psychology: Consciousness. Cognition"
• eye of spirit -- BL624 -- "Religious life"
• eye to eye -- BD161 -- "Speculative philosophy. Epistemology. Theory of knowledge."
• grace & grit -- BF311 -- "Psychology: Consciousness. Cognition"
• integral spirituality -- BL624 -- "Religious life"
• Integral Vision -- BL624 -- "Religious life"
• marriage of sense & soul -- BL240-2 -- "Natural theology -- religion and science"
• no boundary -- BF311 -- "Psychology: Consciousness. Cognition"
• one taste -- BL73 -- "Religious biography"
• sex ecology spirituality -- BF311 -- "Psychology: Consciousness. Cognition"
• simple feeling of being -- BL624 -- "Religious life"
• sociable god -- BL60 -- "Philosophy of religion"
• spectrum of consciousness -- BF311 -- "Psychology: Consciousness. Cognition"
• theory of everything -- BD431 -- "Speculative philosophy. Ontology"
• up from eden -- BF1999 -- "Occult sciences"

This gives: six books classified under religion; six under psychology; three under philosophy; and two under new age. So it looks like the LOC considers Wilber to be a writer who primarily discusses religion and psychology, and secondarily philosophy and new age. He has edited two books on science and has written a novel. — goethean ॐ 19:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely, goethean, did you have fun looking this up? Still haven't responsed to your foul language.... ForrestLane42 22:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Conflicts aside, new age tends to have religious overtones, so I don't see that as an impediment. Gothean, you have not responded to my point about KWs endorsement of gurus that are hardly mainstream as examples of advanced spirituality under his system, and while technically more accurately post new age, a common understanding of what is broader "new age" fits much of KW. While KW claims to be a Buddhist, there are many inconsistencies between Buddhism and what KW advocates and who he endorses. I favor something like "religious/(post?) new age".--72.199.185.19 06:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

With 3-reverts from goethean, I believe this all should be brought to the attention of the editors and has his lead to serious attacks to the integrity of this page in that it should be decided by the editors - it seems to be a return to the page that was here before Eleuther and backface started to mediate a fairer entry. goethean's edits seem to disregard consensus and the integrity of this page and of fellow editors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ForrestLane42 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Please undo this edit. You are not an administrator and do not have the authority to protect an article. Furthermore, you are edit-warring by reverting everything that I do to the article. Why did you remove the text about William Irwin Thompson without discussing it on the talk page? I gave good reason (in standard written English) for all of my edits. — goethean ॐ 17:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First off, I didn't do the William IRvin Thompson editing, thats not me. Second off, by your own way talking down to me, u assume bad faith. I have spoken many times to Larry V about this ForrestLane42 17:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

I didn't do the William IRvin Thompson editing, thats not me.

Wrong. — goethean ॐ 17:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

by your own way talking down to me, u assume bad faith.

Here is the assume good faith policy. You may quote from it when accusing me of breaking policy. — goethean ॐ 17:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I checked Wikipedia....there is no clause that its a tag only for adminstrators, if that is the case, I am sorry for the mistake, I just want this brought to Eleuther and backface's attention..ForrestLane42 17:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Wrong. Revert yourself. — goethean ॐ 17:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you are stating a falsehood when you claim here that your edits have the backing of consensus. Since no one has commented on the talk page except for us, your claim of support for your edits has no validity. I would appreciate it if you would attempt to avoid making false claims in edit summaries in the future. — goethean ॐ 17:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

goethean, they have been in place for a while now, so i think it was safe to assume consensus, no one has said otherwise except you, only you as far as I know. So again stop accusing me of accusations. I have already brought this to Larry V's attention ForrestLane42 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Wrong. The words that I removed in my edits were not there yesterday. Please pay closer attention before making false claims. — goethean ॐ 18:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protection tags are only for use on pages which have been protected - please read one if you doubt this. I have removed it. Requests for page protection are made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Please don't use protection tags on articles which are not actually protected. Thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, almost all professional philosophers ignore Wilber's work: for example, his name goes entirely unmentioned in the titles of twenty-five years' worth of peer-reviewed articles and reviews in the academic journal Philosophy East and West (a philosophical journal specializing in Asian philosophy).

This passage constitues original research and should be removed immediately. — goethean ॐ 19:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi goethean, I agree the first half may be problematic, but the second half of the sentence appears to be a simple cited fact to me. I don't think anyone disagrees and claim that Philosophy East and West actually does have an article by Wilber, so this part is not really a debatable point.

So rather than striking the whole sentence because the first part may be problematic, perhaps we rework it and say, "Wilber has not been published in any peer-reviewed academic journals, and he has not been mentioned in twenty-five years' worth of the academic journal Philosophy East and West (a philosophical journal specializing in Asian philosophy).

Alternately, based on this (which takes a few minutes to run the search) I would think it is fair to say that Mr. Wilber is "rarely even mentioned in any peer-reviewed journal", and strike the whole part about Philosophy East and West. Or even use this to cite the phrase "almost all professional philosophers ignore Wilber's work". This is a search of >1000 academic journals hosted by Highwire as well as all of PubMed finding 115 instances of the phrase "Ken Wilber" anywhere in the text. Many are in the "Journal of Humanistic Psychology", which is a "forum" and not a peer-reviewed journal. There are 10-25 occurrences of his name of him in peer reviewed journals (I didn't look up all the journals, but 10-25 is close enough for our purposes). There are no peer-reviewed articles with his name in the title. There is certainly a discontinuity between the grandioseness of Mr. Wilber's professed solution, and the cool reception he has received in the mainstream. I say let's find a sentence that works, anyone else have thoughts? Oh, and thanks for discussing this on the talk page first! Pro crast in a tor 12:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

but the second half of the sentence appears to be a simple cited fact to me.

It is a fact, but one that was carefully selected in a POV manner. As is the current verbiage. — goethean ॐ 14:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I too appreciate using the talk page first, but I do think the first part is salvagable, if as Pro crast says that there are 10-25 potential articles, lets do a search of Albert Bandura, or B.F. Skinner, or Martin Seligman, see how many articles they have written to use psychologists as an example. Or use philosophers as an example name it Plato, Aristotle, Sartre,etc I think its safe to say that they will have 100 plus articles written about by the author above alone, not to mention the amount of articles that cite their work. So by most standards, the numbers do not look good for Wilber, so I think its accurate that so part of the first sentence can be salvaged ForrestLane42 00:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

Um, goethean? I disagreed with your removal, and you removed it anyway this morning citing the talk page. I'm assuming this is just an oversight, so I pseudo-reverted your edit, adding in my changes per the above. I don't like my phrasing all that much - it needs help - but the gist is there, and I think it's very important to the article. Pro crast in a tor 00:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see the talk page pop up on my watchlist so I assumed no one had replied. — goethean ॐ 03:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wilber has not been published in any peer-reviewed academic journals, and his name is not mentioned in the titles of twenty-five years' worth of the academic journal Philosophy East and West (a philosophical journal specializing in Asian philosophy).

Is this relevant? Wilber is not an academic and doesn't claim to be. His writing is not similar in style or subject matter to academic philosophy. Most popular writers are not published in peer-reviewed academic journals. We already mentioned that Wilber "works outside of the academic mainstream." We could reiterate that Wilber is not an academic, but this seems like an attack, especially when you elide his presence in other journals. — goethean ॐ 14:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The statement stating no peer-reviewed articles is incorrect. Wilber has been published in the Journal of Consciousness Studies, which is peer-reviewed. The lack of citation in one particular journal is not a very useful fact. --Blainster 18:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Journal of Consciousness Studies is not found in any university's library resources, its not academic and is for the layperson. Someone in the past has tried to add this as proof to their cause and it was stricken for NPOV. ForrestLane42 18:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]

This is simply incorrect. It is in the University of Arizona library for one. The statement that it is not academic would be disputed by its editors, who are nearly all academics[5]. The confusion may be because it is interdisciplinary and thus avoids provincial language.--Blainster 19:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Per this edit the "Wilber's influence" and "Criticism of Wilber" sections need to be merged into a "Reception of Wilber" section so that there is a place for any potentially positive material that might hypothetically make it past the gatekeepers. That would probably be an empty set, but we should be prepared just in case. — goethean ॐ 17:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi goethean, the new section title sounds good to me, but I'm still in favor of removing the Charles Taylor quote. It makes Mr. Taylor appear like a living legend, which perhaps he is, but it's odd that he's not referred to in such glowing terms on his own Wikipedia article (or maybe not: it's a very contentious statement from a periodical, not a person). The second part of the quote seems like empty praise to me, not really encyclopedia grade material. Neither part passes the sniff test, so I removed it again.

Also, from your comment, it appears that you think the article is unbalanced because positive material is not being included. Is that what you think, that there is not enough positive material about Mr. Wilber in the article? I thought the whole goal was NPOV, neither positive nor negative, just the facts. It's not supposed to sound like an ad, nor like an attack piece, and to that end, both this quote and negative quotes like "Mr. Wilber is full of himself" will get stricken. Pro crast in a tor 14:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there. I think this article should include his hand/partnership with that networking website.

See http://yeago.net/works/jesus-buddha-ken-wilber for a synopsis. Yeago 20:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, as it's not notable. Wilber's relationship to Zaadz's is much less important than, say, a paragraph about a book he's written. Pro crast in a tor 14:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or another title for this section could be "Mysticism vs. New Age".

In any event, what I want to say here is that even if, for the sake of argument, we were able to demonstrate that "most people" associate Wilber with New Age, that wouldn't justify our calling him a "New Age (insert noun)". At the very most, we could say that there appears to be some consensus that Wilber can be associated with the New Age movement.

In actual fact, however, Wilber is not a "New Age theorist (or philosopher)" because one of the key aspects of "New Age" is the idea of being an "alternative" to the mainstream (almost a protest against the mainstream), which Wilber is not. Wilber embraces the mainstream and all its truths, but then integrates and "transcends" them in a quest for something in some way more complete. (An aside: The important idea of "transcend and include" seems to be missing from the Wilber article in any explicit manner.)

He also talks a lot about "mysticism", but actually relatively little about anything "New Age" or purely "alternative". Let's not make the mistake of equating "spiritual" or "mystical" with "New Age". You wouldn't call a Buddhist, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu or Islamic mystic New Age, would you? And indeed any of these mystics can (and probably do) "integrate" teachings from other realms, not strictly following their own lineage to the exact letter, without having to be called "alternative" or "New Age". (And I'm not saying that Wilber himself is necessarily a mystic, just that he talks much more about mysticism than anything strictly New Age.)

Also, you may claim that most people consider parapsychology or psi research to be "pseudo-science", but that wouldn't justify calling it that in a Wikipedia entry. And indeed serious parapsychology is just as much a true science as any other and satisfies all the criteria of the so-called "scientific method".

So anyway, let's please be very careful about how we use the term "New Age" (or indeed any other label) in reference to Wilber so that we don't confuse fact with opinion (or even consensus). End of sermon. --Grey 09:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I agree with everything you've said, but I do think that "New Age" is a loaded term and should not be used in regards to Mr. Wilber. Pro crast in a tor 14:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you come from Grey? All of the sudden, you are so involved in this page???? I find very interesting to say the least. Regardless...parapsychology is pseudo-science as far as anyone in the scientific community means... To say it is using the scientific method does not mean it is science. Saying Parapsychology is scientific is like saying astrology is a science. I am not sure if New Age fits for Wilber, but facts are that in general people view his work as New Age - or as the borders section label says general metapsychics. At least you agree that Wilber is not a philosopher ForrestLane42 18:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)ForrestLane42[reply]