Talk:Herbert W. Armstrong: Difference between revisions

Biography Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

	In the course of adding material to the entry for Pirate Radio I will also be adding links to this page due to the fact that "The World Tomorrow" broadcast helped to finance the Pirate Radio stations off the British coastline between 1964-1967,  	 

- - In addition to the financial aspects of the "Pirate Radio" station broadcasts, there are also links to such off-beat topics as the Bonzo Dog Band whose UK recording of "Intro and the Outro" contains a spoof feature of Garner Ted Armstrong performing lyrics. - - However, while the Radio Church of God, later the Worldwide Church of God was a religion, it was a also a geo-political movement whose teachings were buried within a religious context. The overseas broadcasts seemed to follow the strange establishment of CIA client stations such as "Radio Swan" (later called "Radio Americas") which played a key role in the Bay of Pigs invasion. This station has a well documented history tied to the CIA. The same is true of stations like "Radio Tangier International" in Africa, and his Russian language broadcasts from "Radio Monte Carlo". - - Yet it is the "Radio Luxembourg" and "Radio Caroline North", "Radio 270", "Radio Scotland", "Radio 390" and "Wonderful Radio London" broadcasts that are most interesting because they represented the US interests in developing Europe as a single entity. The French under de Gaulle advanced the idea of a United States of Europe" having similar powers to the United States of America, while the USA and the UK advanced the idea of a United Europe as a single trading block that would be tied to the USA. Armstrong's broadcasts and supporting literature had a history dating back to pre-WWII in which he warned that a United States of Europe would eventually defeat both the UK and USA with a person similar to Adolph Hitler as its leader. This is thoroughly documented in both the recordings of his broadcasts and his literature. In fact before WWII ended Armstrong thought that the USA would lose and when it actually won, he immediately began predicting that a USE would arise from the ashes and try again. His dire warnings predate even the earliest of the Benelux agreements for trade in iron, steel and coal. - - I will post a note here at such time that I am about to make further additions to this this entry. MPLX 19:20, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I attempted to merge information into this article from aduplicate article "Herbert Armstrong". However, upon closer examination I discovered there was nothing in that article which was not already written in this one. -- SwissCelt 13:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the old version of the "Herbert Armstrong" article (before it became the redirect that it is now). The point about "no middle name" was interesting. There is even a web reference confirming it. So I merged that small bit into the HWA article, today. -Whiner01 05:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the DisputeCheck because items discussed here have been resolved. 70.177.68.209 8 October 2005

About the extensive Bible quotations now in the article defending against the charges - basically an ad hominem against the sources, not the substance of the charges. Are these extended Bible apoiogetics defending Armstrong really necessary in an encyclopedia article, SwissCelt? It adds little, if nothing of original value to the article. 71.244.13.126 1 November 2005

I put up a comment pointing British/Anglo-Israelism to the Christian Identity. Some who are pro-armstrong might find it controversial since it is a white supremist theology. However, if one reads the Christian Identity Article, it clearly points out the Anglo-Israel arguement. Hopquick 13 December 2005

Where are the sources for this list of beliefs? --User:Galut5 (comment moved here from article) --Hetar 03:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most extensive list of doctrines for Worldwide Church of God beliefs is documented in There Came a Falling Away: [1] (this is a pdf, the list of 280 doctrines begins on page 44. The doctrines originally taught by the WCG are list as "old teachings" or the first in the list. The rest of the book explains each doctrine in detail.)

Hrm. I am going to put a copy of this on the main page under doctrines. Jeffreydavis 15:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link to a web page comparing Luther and Armstrong was removed. The page is not NPOV but is written by a Worldwide splinter group member claiming Armstrong was superior to Luther. Clear not encyclopedic. RelHistBuff 21:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There was a link to a pro-Armstrong web page and claims that Armstrong is the prophet Elijah. This is not NPOV so I removed it. I also removed the anti-Armstrong copy/paste of a long article from Ambassador Report. I kept the reference which is sufficient. RelHistBuff 08:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to contain all sorts of highly contentious claims about HWA which are not purely encyclopadic. This is badly in need of some culling. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree. In fact I already started cleaning this up quite a bit. There were lots of references promoting Armstrong's views and were clearly not NPOV. The "Other doctrines" section seem more like a "Promotion of doctrines". I think it is best just to keep the four major doctrines subsection and remove the other doctrines subsection. RelHistBuff 08:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have culled and changed a lot, but there is still a lot more work to be done to get this article to be truly encyclopaedic and to demonstrate NPOV. In particular, the Character and Reputation section should be completely rewritten or removed. The long quote from his autobiography looks more like promotion. The external links are either WCG splinter groups promoting HWA or ex-church members attacking HWA. This article may need a complete rewrite. RelHistBuff 12:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the culling, it was impossible to take out all the POVs. The article really suffered a "death by a thousand cuts" or edits. I have rewritten the article going back to original sources and trying to keep NPOV. I hope others can add or improve on this without the vandalism inflicted that was inflicted on the previous version. Please put your comments on this talk page before making major revisions. RelHistBuff 12:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What a transformation, you should get a highly commended for this objective treatment of such a sensative subject. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 12:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. My main motivation was Wikipedia itself. I got lot of value from it and I thought I should return the favour. I hope others will do the same. RelHistBuff 13:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You did remove a few points which perhaps should -not- have been removed, including the fact (admitted in his autobiography, which you referenced) that Loma Dillon was his cousin. JesseCuster 16:31, 13 May 2006

I took a look in his autobiography and he said Loma was his third cousin and her father is his mother's first cousin. I'm not sure if that needs to be put in. RelHistBuff 06:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There were some major changes done by an anonymous editor. Could he/she please state the reasons for the changes? Meanwhile, I have reverted back to the original.

I agree with one of the edits that the Armstrong referred to the Church of God (Seventh Day) as the church in Sardis not Laodecean. So I put that back in. RelHistBuff 06:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the post that was originally in another subsection to this subsection at the bottom in order to bring this into chronological order as in standard practise. I have copied and pasted the post below. RelHistBuff 13:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many biography aspects are clear and uncontroversial. There is still a very strong emphasis in several areas on only the controversial issues. The fact that the biography focuses on 90% on the last 10 years of this man's life is not surprising given the significance of those last 10 years. However, more empasis could be put on the formative years. In addition, once source (The Ambassador Report) is used for 70-100% of the citations in this and related articles. While The Ambassador Report cannot be entirely excluded as a source (and, arguably, it has provided a useful role in documenting certain factual data such as dates, personalities involved etc.) it is a heavily biased 'publication' (in the UK, it would be called a scandal sheet). There are many issues (including the receivership of the WCG) which are very well documented in the conventional media and I think we (myself included) can work a little harder to use those other sources to produce a well-rounded piece (both in terms of the various periods of this man's life and the various points of view as to his achievements/controversies). In my view, this biography is a long way from that point (not that more volume needs to be written). I note that there are several sincere contributors working on reaching that point. == Anon ==

In response, additional input would be welcome especially in regards to Tkach's role during the receivership years. If you have the sources, please cite them. As for the use of Ambassador Report, please note that I used them only as sources for getting factual data and I was very careful not to include the biased commentary. And although AR is biased against the WCG, note that I also used several sources that are biased for the new WCG. The important point is that the article remains neutral, but the sources where the information is from must be cited as per Wikipedia citation policy. In discussing on these talk pages, please sign your post as per Wikipedia guideline. It makes it easier to keep track of the discussion. RelHistBuff 13:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(I'll read the Wiki protocol). Your comments on your use of the Ambassador Report are well taken. However, much of the data is available from pro or neutral sources. A quick google yields some interesting things. Using a scandal sheet as a source, however, seriously undermines the well intentioned work done to date. If I wanted to write a critique of George Bush, I would produce a highly more credible article if I quoted from US News than if I quoted from the National Enquirer (if you take my point). Clearly this entry and related entries cannot be owned by any one individual. Let's work together to produce some quality sources. Quoting from a highly biased publication to satisfy source criteria (no matter how carefully selected) is not ideal research practice. [[User:]] 13:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This addition you made is done in good faith, but perhaps you could reconsider--it may make people think the old Worldwide Church of God was part of the 'Christian right" political movement, which would be ironic because they specifically taught against the idea that the true church should ever get involved with governemnts and politics.

Also,though I'm someone who chose to get a degree in history, and thus am someone who understands the importance of citing authorities, I think this particular citation is problematic, because the overall statement could be construed by readers that an "expert authority" from a university sees similarities in the old Worldwide with radical groups that have a legitimately documented history of negative behaviour like the David Koresh's ect... As you know, the H.W. Armstrong page can be a starting point for people to decide for themselves. Of course if loaded statements are avoided, people curious about H.W. Armstrong will be encouraged rather than discouraged from doing their own independent research to find out more and decide for themselves what to think.

You know, I wanted to add a statement to temper the professorial thought/ reference, and I really did not want to remove it, but there was just no way to add a tempering thought without the passage appearing ludicrously self-contradictory, or drifting toward op-ed type writing.

I trust that you'll give these thought careful consideration and I thank you in advance for being objective about these comments. --Jebbrady 19:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)jebbrady[reply]

I rewrote this article from an extreme POV-dominated mess to something close to NPOV. And now it has degenerated again to another mess. Ashes-to-ashes, dust-to-dust. I am bringing back my rewrite and will try again. --RelHistBuff 22:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss before implementing major changes. --RelHistBuff 22:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are Wikipedia policies on WP:NPOV. There are also policies on WP:V and I intend to cite sources (WP:CITE) for the original article written before the POV damage. --RelHistBuff 20:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--You you have made sweeping deletions and criticisms recently. I have a couple comments.

You may wish to review the appropriate level of NPOV reflected in the following edit, where you left everything alone in a passage except the following statement: "From his new contacts in Los Angeles, Armstrong began to realize the potential for reaching a much larger audience". You replaced it with this: "From his new contacts in Los Angeles, Armstrong began to realize the potential for expanding his media empire". Certainly you don't think this reveals any lack of NPOV, else you would not have made that change. The record now speaks on that issue alone, and I have no concerns about anyone agreeing with me in my assessment of the NPOV of your edit there.

Please notice also your characterization of Armstrong's baptism, again keeping in mind your confidence in wholesale deleting of other's contributions: "In 1927 he was baptized by a Baptist minister and he described the event in his autobiography as a conversion experience". I am not alone in straightaway recognizing in this statement by you a lack of familiarity with and understanding of Armstrong's writings and the old WCG doctrines, and how greatly these differ with modern American Protestantism (which often entails "conversion experiences" at baptism)--in this case, in regards to baptism and true conversion. As seen in most of his major works, and the booklets on repentance, baptism, and conversion, respectively, he always spoke of the emotional "conversion experiences" of traditional American Christianity as being false, and unbiblical. His teaching clearly was that conversion was not an "experience" but was about submission to God and character development, with it being a life-long process, and that the only aspect of what one might call an initial "conversion" at baptism, according to him, involved an issue having nothing to do with the "conversion experience" so frequently referred to in American Protestantism (He taught that the receiving of the Holy Spirit and begettal into God's family upon baptism was a kind of initial conversion, with the real conversion through continual spiritual growth, as mentioned above, to follow).

Here's a another point to consider: you inserted proportionally large passages about 'scandals', as you put it, revolving around two high ranking people in the WCG. Perhaps that would be appropriate in an article about the old WCG, if done in fairness, in proportion, and without sensationalistic terms like "scandal". I ask, if someone were doing a biography on you, would it seem professional of them to use up %40 percent of the text talking about your son and a close colleague of yours at work? And of course when we consider that these disproportionate, tangential references were strictly of a negative nature, as opposed to the universe of positive tangential insertions one could come up with even for someone like Joseph Stalin (i.e. "one of his commissars did at least help an old lady across the street, once"), it certainly does not look good for your oojectivity--your NPOV.

I will not take time to comment extensively on some of the sections you put in on accusations against Armstrong and Stanley Raider's involvement with Armstrong's activities. I am more than confident that their lack of fitness for an encyclopedia article will be upheld if need be: the assertions and statements (not to mention the oblique, implied, thinly veiled digs) by you toward Armstrong and his administration in these passages, in regards to professional authoritative standards, are at best problematic.

My aim is to uphold the quality and fairness of this article, and to receive with grace legitimate correction from those who know better than I in this subject and Wikipedia matters. If you fail to see the solid reasoning in these repudiations, that's fine--I have no doubt that the appropriate Wikipedia authorities will, and I have saved what I wrote here for future reference. There is no need for you to reply because what has been done by you up to this point speak for itself, and I will not waste any more time in an ongoing exchange with you--but I will do my utmost to keep this reply visible to all if I am forced to by your actions. I certainly am willing to take down this reply if it becomes appropriate. P.S. I am also, a real history buff, possessing a bachelor's degree in it. 69.115.161.123jebbrady

I have asked to put the discussion on the talk page. The version that you have put placed is filled with POV, reading more like a tract rather than a encyclopaedia article. I ask that we go back to the original version as a starting point and address each of your objections in turn. At the same time, controversial assertions must be cited (a requirement in Wikipedia). The original version also need more citations which will be done. In the meantime, I will remove what you feel is objectionable or controversial and we can start from there. --RelHistBuff 08:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

---RESPONSE FROM 69.115.161.123jebbrady (Incidently you didn't remove the offending portions as you said you would.) In addition to what I already wrote above, I would add the following: Considering your additions turned the Armstrong entry into something resembling a tabloid article (in both the focus of content and legitimacy of sources), whether you can see that or not, and aside from the lack of legitimate sources, I'd like to point to the example of an Encyclopedia Britannica Article on Mozart. Though in Mozart's case it actually has in fact been universally established by scholarly authorities that he did largely live a "scandalous" life, especially for that time, you will find that article to be entirely focussed on the unique activities, works and accomplishments that made him famous, influential, and intersting to begin with. It was his life work that made him a subject of interest and study, and therefore is the very reason why in the first place he would be included at all in such an encyclopedia. Therefore, how much less appropriate is it to include unsubstantiated hearsay?

I'm frankly amazed that you assert that others contributions somehow contain a lack of nuetral point of view (NPOV). Meanwhile, your additions strike me as arguably the most obvious in the axe-to-grind-department that I've ever seen. You even slipped in sweeping negative digs largely apropos of nothing in the context, into what was a normal sounding passage. It would appear that what others added recently reads like a tract in your eyes because you project your own lack of NPOV into the work of others. Apparently they must be biased somehow because they don't have a burning desire to stretch and strain to cram as much negativity into the article as possible, whatever the level of hearsay and number of unsubtantiated assertions.

I have removed the "conversion" objection and I used your words in replacing "media empire". Could you please also reciprocate rather than making accusations? I am trying to cooperate. --RelHistBuff 18:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

69.115.161.123 REPLY FROM from jebbrady: I'mn not seeing in you tone the making of an honest debate: I don't think my detailed criticism amounts to "accusations" any more than your first making sweeping, broad assertions that changes I was involved in "read like a tract" and tha tthe article is "filled with POV".