Talk:Belarusian Greek Catholic Church: Difference between revisions

Can people please discuss issues prior to trolling on the article and reverting it. --Kuban Cossack 22:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. Why have you changed the figures quoted by a referenced work by an order of magnitude without a reference? Why would you think the phrases "forced into full communion" and "centuries of Polish persecution" are compliant with the neutral point of view policy? How does a propaganda piece from a church that has centuries of history persecuting the group this article is about cary more weight than a scolarly work as a reference for this article? I'm eagarly awaiting your response. Gentgeen 23:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all what makes an indendent piece of work with over a few hundred references and annotations a propaganda piece. Just because it is published in religious journal. Second of all, it was the Orthodox peoples that were persecuted by the uniate Church not the other way around, even Polish sources admit this fact. Furthermore all of the sources there are 100% genuine. One more revert without proper discussion and its a 3RR notice board.

Now I do agree that this is a topic that is rather controversial, but read Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, read Pochayiv Lavra, read History of Belarus articles and even the hard cored Polish POV-pushers there agree about the forceful conversion of Belarusians into Unia in the 17th and 18th centuries. Now I do agree some NPOVing should be carried out, but since both the Vatican and the Moscow Patriarchy have condemmed the unia, I believe phrases like occupation and forceful conversion as well as return to Orthodoxy are fully appropriate. BTW I did not mean for this to kick off on such a bad start, do apologise if I accidentaly insulted you in the process. --Kuban Cossack 00:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In your opinion, the Eastern Rite Catholic church persecuted the Orthodox. In other's opinions, most Belarusians entered union with Rome to prevent the russification or polinization of Belarus, and were then persecuted when Belarus came under Russian domination. Both POVs should be presented in the article, but your edits make this article advocate your view, which violates Wikipedia is not a soapbox, an official policy of the project. The only source you cite for all the various changes you have made to the article is in Russian, which is cautioned against in Reliable sources, which also cautions against using partisan or religious websites as references on any topic except themselves.

The phrase "pure catholicism" to equate to "Latin Rite Catholicism" is not suppotrted by the teachings of the Roman Chruch on the nature of the church, and is offensive to me and other Catholics. By the way, the term "Unia" or "Uniate" is offensive to many Eastern Rite Catholics, and should not be used in an article about an existing Eastern Rite Church, except to define the term.

Finally, don't threaten me with the 3RR, as I helped implement the policy and have enforced it many times. I'm very well aware of the number of times I have touched this article. Gentgeen 09:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but uniatism was polonisation of Belarusians. When Grand Duchy of Lithuania became more and more absorbed by the Polish state more and more nobility converted to "latin rite catholicism" (have it your way). However for the Belarusian peasentry Orthodoxy on the contrary strengthened its position and right up until the end of the 16th century no Pole could get anyone into the unia. Sorry to call them that but that is the official name used by Belarusian government (read WP:Naming Conventions) In any case, a few bishops agreed on the union of Brest to create the unia. Immediately they were banished by the Orthodox Church and for the remaining 17th century only to the end of it were they getting any strong numbers in their ranks. Howver then came the Khmelnitskiy uprising which freed Ukraine from the Polish yoke and agreed in Pereyaslavl to reunite with Moscouvy under the pretext of guarding Orthodoxy. 18th century, Belarusians lose all noble roles in Rezcpospolita, those that remain are either 100% Polonised or slowly being forced into Unia, especially when for many it was a choice of either that or persecution (so in theory you are right but just ommitted several important facts). After that partitions, Russians come along to see Ruthenian peasents being ruled by Polish landlords. Cathrine II issues a decree of religious tolerance and any uniate christians that wish to return to Orthodoxy must do that under their own behalf. Of course some return immediately. However these are usually from the border areas and the south. Polish Catholics see the threat of uniats returning to Russian Orthodox Church and accelarate works to end the Chruch's position as interim solution of conversion of Orthodox christians to Catholicism. Many institutions including the University of Vilnius begin strained efforts to convert as many eastern rite to western rite. Most high clergy go, but some choose to remain and still see the links between the Orthodox brothers as to strong, these have majority of followers behind them. Then 1831 Poles uprise. Russians subdue them, Poles are stripped of any influencial role in Society. Uniate church is simply there to do...nothing. Also officially its synod supported the uprising. All the Pro-Latin Rite clergy is removed. Eight years synod of Polotsk agrees to reunite with the Church under leadership of Bishop Joseph Semashko. The numbers provided are genuine. Those that want to remain uniate are left on the streets as Russian state acts swift to confiscate all uniate property and hand it over to the Orthodox Church. However as the chronicles of Pochayiv Lavra show, within several years most ex-uniate clergy returned to their former places, adopted Orhodox traditions and until the 1910s lived happily ever after.

I am putting this article on WP:Russian portal notice board, having a constructive argument with you has failed. Now this is going to be a nasty revert war, but you asked for it. --Kuban Cossack 10:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is interesting to me that when I bring up policies and guidelines that I believe apply to this situation, your response is that the discussion is over, and it's time for uncivil behavior. By the way, I've reported your 5 reverts of this article in the last 25 or so hours to the Admin's notice board. Have a nice 24 hour break. Gentgeen 11:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]