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Former article talkpages (archived) Talk:Kosovo/ Republic of Kosovo Kosovo (geopolitical region)

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I don’t know if this info could be put on the article somehow, but anyway, here’s the link of the news.--BalkanWalker (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IMF officials declined to comment Tuesday, because the results hadn't yet been made public. -- at least wait for the IMF to actually issue some sort of statement. --dab (𒁳) 15:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It already did, on Friday: [1]. — Emil J. 10:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then it should definitely be noted in the article. I agree this is a further step towards international recognition. --dab (𒁳) 10:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I propose the name of the article should be changed to the Republic of Kosovo. This is not to suggest that Kosovo is a 'state' or has been recognized as one. It does however, represent the name of the country which the majority of people in the territory wish it to called. Moreover, the state proclaimed by Kosovo's authorities in 1991 had only Albania recognize it, but there is a Wikipedia article which refers to it as The Republic of Kosovo. This is very confusing for readers and not very clear. Changing the name of the article will also free up some of the space at the top of the 'Kosovo' page which makes the article look congested and highly fragmented. What do people think about this? Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Republic of Kosovo is an unrecognised unliterall state,unless it is fully recognised by at least half of the World,it cannot be independent!UN Resolution 1244 confirms it,or otherwise why not allow the Serb Republic,N Cyprus,South Ossetia etc to be independent.Kosovo and Metohia will remain an integral part of the Republic of Serbia,and as soon as you face that,it will be better.Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by СРПСКИЦАР (talk • contribs) 20:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think renaming the article would solve much, the redirects would still be needed and the disambiguation at the top of the article sums up pretty well how controversial and confused the situation still is. P.S. Is it not fair practice to add new queries to the bottom of the page?Brutaldeluxe (talk) 13:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot about that etiquette, but I'll continue here for now

I have two points of contention, one is regarding the name of the article and the other is how the article is structered: the situation surrounding Kosovo's independence is not as controversial and confused in reality. It has now technically gained entry in to the IMF: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/db5f737a-39d6-11de-b82d-00144feabdc0.html. Even countries that refuse to accept Kosovo as independent, such as Greece, have voted in favor of it at the IMF. The article states: [joining the IMF is]...'a benchmark of economic credibility that would reassure investors and unlock hundreds of millions of euros more in economic aid...[to Kosovo]' If kosovo's status was as confused, or if Kosovo was as 'unstable' as the introduction to the article suggests, then the IMF would not risk its reputation and admit Kosovo as a member. The article needs to be more orientated towards the realities of Kosovo's independence, in the sense that Kosovo's affairs, whether foreign or domestic, are now directed from Pristina and not from Belgrade. Therefore, in the interest of maintaining a neutral point of view, the article should have the name Kosovo uses to apply for international organisations such as the IMF which has 180+ members. Furthermore, the people of Kosovo are no longer under the control of Belgrade, neither de jure nor de facto as entry to the IMF and the fact that Kosovo is a potential candidate for entry in to the EU - the same status granted to Serbia - shows. However, having said all of this, offcourse there should be some reference to the Serbian side of the argument, but this does not have to be with regards to what the country is actually called in reality.

Furthermore, if we look at the article on Israel, we see that the state is introduced in a positive light, despite being constantly at war with the Palestinians, besides the fact that Israel goes against aspects of international law and despite the FACT that some of its neighbors do not have full diplomatic relations with it, Saudi Arabia comes to mind first. On the other hand, ALL of Kosovo's neighbors have recognized its independence and have FULL diplomatic relations with it - apart from Serbia that is. Again, the article should reflect this from the outset and not ramble on about its non recognition from Belgrade.

The article on Kosovo should undoubtedly make reference to the ongoing dispute between Kosovo and Serbia, but this should be done later on in the introduction to the article as is the case with the article on Israel, not immediately as is the case with the Kosovo article.

What do people think of this proposal to re-structure the article? Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your point on restructuring the article is valid and would make a positive change to it. Go for it, you have my 100% support for it. However, I still feel that "Republic of Kosovo" is at the moment a name used by Kosovars to remind people of their indipendent status, and it will probably remain as such. For example, and I aknowledge that it a different case, although the name for the Italian state is "Republic of Italy", the article about the country is called "Italy" and that's the name you see on the plaque during UN and EU meetings.

The reason that the Israel article gives such a rosey view of the country is that, like a lot of wiki articles, it is maintained by fans, plus the fact that Israel (and the countries that support it) has a large proportion of English speakers with internet access, things that its main detractors do not have. It's just a focus problem that exists in much of the English speaking world. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The page is protected, how do I gain access to edit? Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have to make a certain number of edits on other articles first, to show that you are a genuine contributor. You'll find more info here: Wikipedia:Protect.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 22:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the article in acordance to the discussions I have had with Brutaldeluxe. I would now like to discuss removing the redirect links on top of the page to make it look more presentable, esspecially the one linking Yugoslavia, none of the ex-Yugoslav regions have this link. In fact, it would be better to remove all of the redirect links, as they cluster the article and makes it look too fragmented. I propose outlining all of Kosovo's various names and statuses in the history of Kosovo section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interestedinfairness (talk • contribs)

what "discussions"? Your lead reads:

Kosovo (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës) ... is a self declared state in Europe ... Kosovo is a constitutional republic located at the heart of the Balkans

blatantly ignoring anything that has been discussed on this page over the past year. There is no way you had a consensus for such an edit, and your revert back to it obviously violates article probation. Republika e Kosovës is obviously the Albanian for "Republic of Kosovo", not for "Kosovo". "Kosovo" is a region. The "Republic of Kosovo" is a self-declared state. I have myself proposed to create an article on the Republic of Kosovo in the past, but I did not find consensus, and consequently the article wasn't created. WP:CONSENSUS isn't some nice optional extra. --dab (𒁳) 13:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the region "Kosovo" is not the same as it was about 100 years ago, compare Vilayet of Kosovo. But when people talk nowadays about Kosovo they mean the new state, see all other Wikipedias, dear Dieter Bachmann from Switzerland. So stop your pro serbian POV and look at all the other Wikipedias, please! --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 02:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yes? I have no idea why you are addressing me personally, "Mustafa", but I will be happy to support the creation of a separate Republic of Kosovo article.

I don't suppose it is open to doubt that Kosovo is a disputed territory. The territory is disputed between two Republics, the self-declared and partially recognized "Republic of Kosovo" on one hand, and the "Republic of Serbia" on the other. I don't see why you need this pointed out to you personally, you could just read the article. May I suggest that maybe you have an opinion on this dispute? Maybe you think one side is "right"? Then you should refrain from editing the article until you have understood WP:TRUTH, and any edit you make must be from a position detached from your personal opinion. In fact, it will be easiest if you try and collect material on the position you do not support (known as "Wikipedia:writing for the enemy").

If you take your own advice and "check all Wikipedias", you will find that many of these articles mirror our lead exactly. Of course you need some language skills to verify this.

• Ко́сово (сербск. Косово, алб. Kosova; согласно юрисдикции властей, фактически контролирующих большую часть региона — Респу́блика Ко́сово (алб. Republika e Kosovës, сербск. Република Косово), согласно юрисдикции Сербии — Автоно́мный кра́й Ко́сово и Мето́хия (сербск. Аутономна покрајина Косово и Метохија, сокр. сербск. Космет)) — регион на Балканском полуострове.
• Kosovo o Kósovo ... es un territorio ubicado en la península de los Balcanes ... El estatus de Kosovo es motivo de disputa. Serbia considera que Kosovo es una provincia autónoma dentro de su propio territorio, en cumplimiento de la Resolución 1244 de Consejo de Seguridad de las Naciones Unidas. ... El gobierno provisional de Kosovo declaró unilateralmente su independencia de Serbia el 17 de febrero de 2008 con el apoyo de Estados Unidos y parte de la Unión Europea, instaurando la República de Kosovo. Serbia, Rusia, España y otros países no aceptaron este hecho unilateral ni reconocen a la República de Kosovo como Estado soberano.
• Kosovo ... är ett omstritt territorium och en delvis internationellt erkänd republik i Sydosteuropa, vilken dock Serbien anser vara en del av sitt suveräna territorium i form av en autonom provins. Den 17 februari 2008 förklarade sig Kosovo självständigt från Serbien. Reaktionen från omvärlden har varit blandad.
• Το Κοσσυφοπέδιο ή Κόσοβο ... είναι μια περιοχή των Βαλκανίων (πρώην επαρχία της Σερβίας), η οποία από το 1999 βρίσκεται υπό την προσωρινή διοίκηση του ΟΗΕ και την στρατιωτική προστασία του ΝΑΤΟ.

and so on, and so forth.

Of course arguing that we need to violate NPOV because you found some other article on some other wiki project that violates NPOV is a non-starter, known as the WP:OTHERCRAP fallacy. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But no language skills needed to see that in all this articles the country box is on top, suggesting this is about the country and not about a "region". --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 12:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oh, you are here for infobox edit-wars? Then I apologize I took this seriously for a minute there. I like to maintain the illusion that the actual text matters, but I realize some people think "read the article" means "lookie at the pictures". --dab (𒁳) 13:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First step to improve the article would be to put county box on top like in all other wikipedias, then we can talk about the more difficult and less obvious things. --84.56.239.92 (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you just give it up? Since the beginning you are trying to fool us by telling us that "Kosovo" means the region. But nowadays region is the state, there is no differece. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 12:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, as in Ко́сово — регион на Балканском полуострове or Το Κοσσυφοπέδιο ... είναι μια περιοχή των Βαλκανίων , or ''Kosovo o Kósovo ... es un territorio ubicado en la península de los Balcanes. Also, stop breaking up my comments. --dab (𒁳) 13:36, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, they all show the Flag of the Republic of Kosovo on top, making clear what the topic is about. We should do the same. --84.56.239.92 (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

so you complain about the order of infoboxes, or the article layout and its image selection, and not about any of the actual content of the article? Then I would ask you, if the article text makes clear that this is the article about a region in the Balkans, why, according to WP:IMG or MOS:IMAGES, would you argue the uppermost image needs to be a flag designed in 2008? Republic of Kosovo redirects here. This article has a "Republic of Kosovo" section. As long as we do not create a dedicated Republic of Kosovo article, our layout guidelines state clearly that images relevant to the 2008 Republic of Kosovo specifically should be placed in the section dedicated to the 2008 Republic of Kosovo.

this is my take on the situation. Needless to say, if you have convincing arguments, you may conduct a strawpoll, and if you find a clear majority ("consensus") of editors agreeing with you, your edit will be implemented no matter what I think. So, if you have any argument beyond WP:ILIKEIT or WP:OTHERCRAP, now would be a good time to present it. --dab (𒁳) 14:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You say: "Then I would ask you, if the article text makes clear that this is the article about a region in the Balkans, why, according to WP:IMG or MOS:IMAGES, would you argue the uppermost image needs to be a flag designed in 2008?" I say again and again and again that this article is not about the region but about the country. How often do I need to repeat this? It is even written on top of this section: "If people talk about Kosovo they mean the Republic of Kosovo, not the "Region"". What exactly you do not understand? --84.56.239.92 (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need to repeat it, you need to read the lead, which states unambiguously that you are wrong. If you want to rewrite the lead, the burden lies on you to find consensus first. One you have consensus to rewrite the lead, we can of course also change image layout to reflect the changes.

Tubesship, I am not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me, ok? So why don't you present a clean proposal and see if you get consensus. I will vote oppose, but if you get four people to support you, and nobody else to support me, you'll have an impeccable 80% consensus and you'll be free to do your changes anyway. This isn't an invitation to sock or meatpuppetry. By "people" I mean "Wikipedia editors in good standing". --dab (𒁳) 15:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When people talk about "Kosovo", it all depends on context to whether they are talking about the region or the country. This article is about both the region and the country. So I see no problem. Obviously when some Serbian politicians refer to Kosovo as KiM or Kosmet they are obviously refer to the region Kosovo, not the country. Ijanderson (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I propose a separate Republic of Kosovo article. Dab seems to be in favor, Bruteldelux I seek your opinion on this too, as well as anybody else interested in this discussion. Interestedinfairness (talk) 16:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Like Anderson said, if you want to separate into "Republic of Kosovo" and the region, you should name the region article accordingly, maybe Kosmet or Vilayet of Kosovo or Region of Kosovo and leave the article Kosovo about the Republic of Kosovo. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

see China, which is neither a redirect to People's Republic of China nor to Republic of China. If there is no consensus at all, Kosovo will just need to redirect to Kosovo (disambiguation). Nobody will be able to claim that this would support any sort of "pov". --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are two different entities, Kosovo is the same spot on earth. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 20:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough DAB, I think the article on China is a great example of how it should be separated. With your consent, I will begin work on the Republic of Kosovo article now. I understand your point mustamann but lets not bicker about it, the republic of kosovo article will work Interestedinfairness (talk) 17:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, you need to understand that the current state of the article has a long history of debate. While I would agree to a separate Republic of Kosovo article, others have disagreed, even if we're discounting Tubesship-Mustamann as disingenious. You will need to make the proposal here, and then wait for a couple of days for others to comment. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. --dab (𒁳) 17:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There have been proposals for three separate articles before:

• Republic of Kosovo
• Kosmet/ KiH article with UNMIK/ EULEX
• Kosovo region with geography ect
  

We could reopen this discussion I suppose. But if we do create these three articles, I strongly suggest that the article page "Kosovo" should be a disambiguation, this will help maintain NPOV and not be biased, plus readers can easily find the correct the article they are looking for.

We should start a poll to see if there is enough to support to go along with this proposal for. But this should not be the grounds for creating the three articles, just to see if there is enough interest for doing so. Ijanderson (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I think that the current state with three boxes is the most neutral and the most reflective of the situation on the ground. It's not simple but the status of Kosovo is far from simple as well.--Avala (talk) 21:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

dab, you live in Switzerland and so do I. Do you read newspapers? I think you do. Do you hear what newspapers, politicians and people write or say? I think you do. And what do they think when they say 'Kosovo'? Do they think about the region or the country? To me, it's obvious, maybe it's not your point of view and it could only make more difference between Swiss French like me and Swiss German like you (joke =] ). To me, the best thing to do is to change the begining of the article by saying that Kosovo is a partially-recognised Republic AND is considered as a province of Serbia by Serbia and other countries. It's obvious that when we talk about Kosovo we talk about a country OR a province of Serbia ; and that clearly shows that nobody continues to only consider Kosovo as a region but as a country or a province. Best greetings dab :) !--89.217.72.16 (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what you say. This whole "region" argument is pure distraction, nothing else. --84.56.239.92 (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well since there seems to be no consensus in splitting the article, and so much consensus that Kosovo should in fact be renamed to the Republic of Kosovo, then why don't we just change the name? Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you and would do so but doing this would say that the article is 'Albanian-POV', I bet everything people would come and say that ... --89.217.72.16 (talk) 19:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No such rename will take place. Naming this article Republic of Kosovo would be just as biased as naming it Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. - Ev (talk) 20:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then why not SPLIT off articles on EACH of those two entities, leaving this article for the region and to serve as a central guidepost to the more detailed articles? Khajidha (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because I think that our readers would find it easier to understand Kosovo's convoluted realities by being presented with one single, comprehensive article. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My aim here is to reach a consensus, as per Wikipedia's policy of consensus, see: Wikipedia:consensus. Firstly, after having read numerous pages of the talkpage, and understanding that this article has a long history of debate, I have come to the conclusion that this article should be split (actually Dab suggested it but I am proposing it). According to this proposition, Kosovo will redirect to disambiguation - much like the article on China. Kosovo the region will remain in its current state which is in a constant state of confusion and semi-protection to underscore the "confused state" of Kosovo's independence - a view held by some.

Another article - the Repulic of Kosovo - will be created to enlighten readers to the de facto control the Kosovar-Albanian authorities have in the running of the region and the support it has recieved from most Western, English speaking countries and so forth.

What do people think, as has been mentioned above, dab is an agreement, so am I (off course), who else? Interestedinfairness (talk) 18:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree I would support that, please see my three way proposal above though first. Ijanderson (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Disagree, Kosovo is the newborn state, everything else should have another article name. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 19:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to POV biased users such as Mustafa Mustamann, we will never get things resolved. We must be willing to compromise. Ijanderson (talk) 19:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anderson, look at all the other wikipedias and dare to say again I am the povish one. All other Wikipedias have no disambiguation but the country box on top and an article named plainly Kosovo for the newborn state. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

therefore all other wikipedia's most not be as neutral and be biased. I edit the German wikipedia and yes they have the info box at the top ect, I find that not to be as neutral. Also there are many pro Serbian editors on English wikipedia, therefore think they are going to be happy if we make POV pro Kosovo edits, thats why we should compromise. Ijanderson (talk) 20:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I find focussing this article on the Republic would be very neutral as it would reflect that people talking about Kosovo usually refer to the newborn state and so should this article. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although I would agree with Mustafa in principle, but I think we definitely need some sort of consensus, therefore I suggest you reconsider your vote. Nevertheless, this is constructive so lets see how many more opinions we can get. Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree - I think it's good the way it is.--Avala (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Avala, the Kosovo page has numerous inaccuracies,

---the neutrality of the article is disputed

---the article may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text

Can you please eloborate on why you think 'it's good the way it is'. Thanks. Any more views from people? Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:15, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite clearly we have no consensus already, so its best to end the discussion here in my opinion. Ijanderson (talk) 22:40, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One Serb and one Albanian not willing to budge shouldn't stop this process. We should keep it going for a while and see how it goes. Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you consider my reasoning that people talking about Kosovo usually refer to the newborn state and therefore this article should be about the Republic?! --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 13:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because pro Serbian editors would NEVER agree to it Ijanderson (talk) 14:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also it can not only be about the Republic of Kosovo, it must include that it is a disputed territory, it must include UNMIK & EULEX too, and we must include that Serbia still claims it. Also not everyone who talks about Kosovo talks about the the country Rep of Kosovo. We need to be NPOV. Ijanderson (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree - Nowadays, nobody thinks of Kosovo as a region, but as a country (for the ones who recognise the independance) or as a province of Serbia. I ask Wikipedia users to respect my point of view as I respected theirs and not to try to persuade me in any way. Please, accept the fact that we can agree (as Ijanderson did for example) but that we can also disagree. --89.217.72.16 (talk) 15:19, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree with a split. I think that our readers would find it easier to understand Kosovo's convoluted realities by being presented with one single, comprehensive article. - In any case, infobox fetishism should never be allowed to dictate how we organize content. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree - the comparison with China does not make sense as the PRC and the ROC occupy different territories (even though they claim each other's territory too). In the case of Kosovo, we're speaking of one geographic territory which is disputed between the Republic of Kosovo (which controls most of it) and Serbia. If you split the article, you'll end up with two totally biased articles - the Republic of Kosovo article showing the Kosovar POV and a Province of Kosovo with the Serbian POV. The only way to try to achieve a neutral POV is by only having one article. If the current one is not up to it, then try to improve the article. Khuft (talk) 19:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And that is exactly the same as in the China situation, both are territory disputes between two countries one which controls most of it. chandler ··· 20:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. The Republic of Kosovo does not claim the full territory of Serbia. In the case of China, two states calling themselves "China" on two separate territories claim the sum of both territories and pretend to be the sole representatives of "China". The Kosovo situation is rather more like the situation of Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Somaliland or Western Sahara - with the difference that it is by now recognised by many more countries. Creating two or more articles on Kosovo would be like creating two or more articles on Abkhazia. Khuft (talk) 20:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree - If we wanted to be neutral we would have kosovo be about the region and two articles for the country and province of kosovo. --Jakezing (Your King) (talk) 12:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Disagree - per Khuft's logic. No need to create duplicate, POV-clashing articles about the same region. --Tocino 21:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree with splitting the article, in fact I've mentioned this idea before. We need a central article that would give an overview of the fluctuations in area and control over the past several centuries and then link to larger articles covering each period/government. Khajidha (talk) 04:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC) (forgot to log in, coming back to fix)[reply]

Khajidha, we already do that. Check the current "History" section, and see all the "Main article" & "Further information" links provided after each sub-section heading. - Ev (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was including the current Republic of Kosovo and Autonomous Province of Kosovo under "each period/government", which IS NOT done in those links. Those two are BOTH subsumed in this article and it suffers for it. Khajidha (talk) 17:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will revise the history bit as soon as I have enough time, it is lacking in proper evidence and has some dubious claims. I will have in hand my Noel Malcolm, George Gawlrych, Isa Blumi and other books in hand.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Interestedinfairness (talk • contribs) 22:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone wanna fess up to deleting my edits on the article yesterday???

The edit was:

the Albanian government of the Republic of Kosovo has de facto control over the territory (apart from Kosovska Mitrovica) (------------ (you see I also used the Serbian spelling of the city!!!! and it still gets deleted.) Apart from Serbia, Kosovo is recognized by all the former states that emerged from the collapse of Yugoslavia. What is wrong with that edit? Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did not delete your edit; instead I merely attempted to better integrate it into the more-or-less stable lead section (and explained so in my edit summary - diff.). - Best, Ev (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you for that, but you did deleted the bit about all the former Yugoslav countries recognizing Kosovo (apart from Serbia). This is important since it is the disintegration of Yugoslavia which has led to the current situation and also informs the audience about some of the background issues regarding this issue. And since you do not explain the reason for this I will add that statement again. Thanks for your help. Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict: I had realized I had not given a full answer, and was expanding my previous comment into the following :-)

I did not delete all your edit:

• The first sentence (on territorial control) was merely moved by me in an attempt to better integrate it into the more-or-less stable lead section (and explained so in my edit summary - diff.).
• The second sentence (on ex-Yugoslav recognition) was first corrected by EmilJ (diff.) because it was inaccurate, and then removed altoghether by me (diff.), because I considered it repetitive & unnecessary for the lead section. Serbia's position was already mentioned in the lead, while the details about the other former Yugoslav countries do not, in my opinion, merit mention there. Those details are given in the "2008 declaration of independence" section & related articles (I explained so in my edit summary - diff.).

Best, Ev (talk) 20:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have clarified the lead section as to the role of EULEX and the now defunct role of UNMIK. Secondly, as I said earlier, all of the former Yugoslav states recognize Kosovo and provides a useful link to how the current situation has unfolded. I regret that you do not see the significance of all of Kosovo's neighbors recognizing it. Also you removed Kosovo's admittance into the IMF, pleas refrain from removing relevant material from the article - IMF membership strengthens Kosovos desire for statehood. Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The three points:

• EULEX: discussed below, at the EULEX section of this talk page.
• Former Yugoslav states: in my opinion, for the lead's summary, the sentence mentioning that "[Kosovo's] independence is recognised by [X] UN member states [& Taiwan]" is enough. All the rest, including such details as the reactions by their neighbours, are better presented in the article's body (more precisely, in the "2008 declaration of independence" section, which currently dedicates a paragraph to the issue, stating that "all of Kosovo's immediate neighbour states except Serbia have recognised..."). I think that this organization constitutes the current consensus on the issue, but we can ask other editors if they prefer to add those details to the lead. In any case, the blanked statement is not accurate: neither Serbia nor Bosnia recognize Kosovo's independence.
• IMF mention: I did not remove the mention of the IMF; I moved it to the "2008 declaration of independence" section (as my edit summary explains - diff.).

Best, Ev (talk) 15:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the article is in an absolutely shambolic state. I propose not taking any Serbian and to appease those Serbs, no Albanian sources either, with regards to the sourcing of topics. The Great Serb Migration is a myth, if it was not so, there would be more than a Serbian author sourced, check out the article. Furthermore, I will edit this in detail very soon, and I will only use NON BALKAN authors to ensure a neutral point of view. Again this article is in a ridiculous state and if any one can help sort it out in the meantime, feel free. I suggest Noel Malcolm (Oxford scholar and not from the Balkans!). Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited, Economy, Rule of Law and Military sections of the article with proper links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Interestedinfairness (talk • contribs) 22:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Interestedinfairness, I was gonna keep out of this, but you called for my opinion, I've been away and not able to follow the discussion and since I feel that when I said:

Your point on restructuring the article is valid and would make a positive change to it. Go for it, you have my 100% support for it I did not explain myself properly, here's a few points:

• disagree with splitting the article, in any shape or form: people have heard of Kosovo, let the article explain what Kosovo is about.
• agree that the article is a mess. It should be eradicated of all [dispute] notes, or anything of the sort, that's what I meant with restructuring.
• agree that no authors or sources from the Balkans should be used, but this also makes it hard to be completely inclusive about the subject, so if something cannot be verified, it should be deleted.
• disagree with bashing a new user who hasn't been following ongoing disputes.

Brutaldeluxe (talk) 03:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why oh Why has the edit that clarifies the now defunct operation of UNMIK and introduces EULEX been deleted. I do nopt want to enter into an editwaring situation but I am forced to because of POV elemetents on here. Will an admin with some sense come and sort this out. P.S. thank you for your opinion Brutelex. Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion is an act of vandalism as it is done without discussion and against the will of another user. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 12:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mustafa, that description does not fit our definition of vandalism (which is amongst the most misused words in Wikipedia anyway). Please, use the word carefully. — Also, be mindful of our copyrights policy. The text you re-introduced (lifted verbatim from http://www.eulex-kosovo.eu/?id=2) is under copyright. As mentioned below, I have replaced it with a single brief mention (diff.). - Best, Ev (talk) 15:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, that is too much detail for the lead section's summary. I have reduced it to a single sentence: "came under the interim administration of the United Nations (UNMIK), whose role was partially assumed by the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) in 2008." (diff.) — Details should be given in the "2008 declaration of independence" and "Rule of law" sections, but always briefly, reserving the detailed descriptions for the article on EULEX itself. — Also, be mindful of our copyrights policy. The text you introduced (lifted verbatim from http://www.eulex-kosovo.eu/?id=2) is under copyright. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you, but if you check the disclaimer, you will see that...EULEX Kosovo shall be credited as source when using content from its website. it was credited before, but thanks for your vigilance, I wasn't all that aware of copyright rules. I will reinstate this and add a little extra to your edit, namely removing the partially assumed bit because as you know its more then partially taken over from UNMIK. Furthermore, I will add IMF membership to the article. Thanks for your help, and just as a side-note, you might wanna check out Serbia Talk. Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, three points:

• Copyright: as my edit summary indicated, I did check the Copyright and Disclaimer of Liability. That permission would be enough for most publications, but to include text in Wikipedia it has to be from websites with a GFDL-compatible license (there's a big bolded warning to this effect below the editing window :-). So, that permission does not allow for the incorporation of that text into our articles.
• UNMIK/EULEX: the word partially was an understatment, yes, and I didn't feel comfortable with it. I just didn't stop to think of something better. Notice however that some qualification is needed, because EULEX did not replaced UNMIK in all roles. - What would you use intead of "partially" ? I propose "most of whose roles were assumed" (diff.).
• IMF: the IMF issue is already mentioned in the article, at the "2008 declaration of independence" section (I moved it there from the lead - diff.). - Furthermore, that IMF Press Release (No. 09/158, of 8 May 2009) says that Kosovo has been offered membership, not that it is already a member. - I have thus removed that inaccurate mention from the lead (diff.).

Best, Ev (talk) 20:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well Kosovo applied for membership, the IMF offered it membership...I think its fair to assume it is a member of the IMF? Furthermore, I will agree with your rewording of the sentence regarding EULEX but I insist on the word 'de facto' being in bold as it highlights a very important point. Nevertheless, I thank you for your continued presence on this page. Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo seems not yet to be a member of the IMF. The above-mentioned press release says the following: "The Republic of Kosovo will become a member of the IMF when its authorized representative signs the IMF’s Articles of Agreement in Washington D.C. Before signing the Articles, the Republic of Kosovo must formally accept, in accordance with its own laws, the IMF’s Articles of Agreement and all the terms and conditions prescribed in the Board of Governors’ resolution, and confirm that it has taken all steps necessary to enable it to carry out all its obligations under those two documents." I have no idea where the formal process currently stands, but the IMF website gives no indication that it has finished yet. Khuft (talk) 20:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, when you ask for a car & are offered one by the vendor, it is not fair to assume that you already own that car; for that to happen further steps are required. Applying for IMF membership and being offered it is not all it takes to actually being a member (of the IMF or of any other organisation). As Khuft mentions above, the very IMF press release indicates what further steps are required, the final one being "[Kosovo's] authorized representative sign[ing] the IMF’s Articles of Agreement in Washington D.C."

For anyone who doesn't understand how this process works, and when membership becomes effective, the simplest answer is to check the list of IMF's members and wait for Kosovo to be included there.

Regarding the need to highlight "de facto", Wikipedia uses italics, not boldface, for emphasis in article text (as explained in our Manual of Style guideline for text formatting). - Best, Ev (talk) 15:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't de facto be italicized anyway as it is a Latin phrase used in English? At least I was always told that foreign words should be italicized unless they have become fully assimilated (example: no one would italicize burrito, even though it is a Spanish word). De facto seems to still maintain the sense of foreignness that requires italics, therefore it would be emphasized by using bold and italics (de facto). Or am I missing something? Khajidha (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would be italicized anyway. :-) But that fact doesn't diminish the emphasis the italics convey to that particular wording. In any case, as our Manual of Style mentions, Wikipedia does not use boldface to emphasize such information, but for other purposes. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen the talk on here but I refer you all to the british foreign office website, which, besides the fact that the U.K. has recognized Kosovo as an independent state, still maintains a neutral stance. I think we should adopt a similar style when naming the cities of Kosovo. I.E. - Prishtina/Pristina (can't do the Serbian one) Peja/Pec, Mitrovica/Kosovoska Mitrovica, Gjakova/Dakova

What do people think, its more mature then this childish, one albanian one serb one, don't you think? Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have clarified some of the innacurate statements of the introduction, namely regarding Kosovo's status within Yugoslavia, hopefully this will go some way in removing that non-neutral tag on top of the page. By the way, the source is Noel Malcolm, the only neutral author on Kosovo's history we have available to us, in English. Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could use the English spellings of the native language version. If the native language is Serbian, we shall use English Alphabet translations of the Serbian. IT is simpler just to use Albanian. --Jakezing (Your King) (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some one is hijacking my edits, this is unacceptable, the sources are being messed around with to make the article look non-neutral. What is going on??? This is the source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia Any admins around? Interestedinfairness Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And yes Jakezing I would agree with you. Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, if Noel Malcolm is the only neutral author when it comes to Kosovo, then one really has to question how some people on this talk page define "neutral". Also, I'd stand clear of such statements as "the ONLY neutral one" as that by itself is not an argument of any kind.

Secondly, the place names should be in Serbian - not just because Kosovo is, according to UN Security Council Resolution 1244 a part of Serbia, and only a minority of countries in the world are ignoring that and going ahead with their geopolitical policies, but because the place names are largely Serbian in origin. The Albanian versions are the same words written differently, in the spirit of their language. --Cinéma C 21:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is just the other way round, the names are from Albanian origins and the Serbs try to slavify them. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 21:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You don't really make an argument. But every one can see that, so I'll disregard your comment about the source. Your argument about Serbian place names is also weak. But I'm not here to discuss history, I'm here to ask for some sort of consistency, and Albanian first, Serbian second seems consistent with the article. Thanks

Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could use the language of the governing body of the territory, which is kosovo. --Jakezing (Your King) (talk) 22:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The governing body in Kosovo is the UN. In case some of you forgot. --Cinéma C 22:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does the United Nations hold political power? Does it hold legislative or judicial power? The governing body on kosovo territory is current a mix of some of the european thing, whatevers left of the UN group, and the majority being the republic. --Jakezing (Your King) (talk) 22:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the specific purposes of our naming conventions, who holds power is mostly irrelevant. In any case, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed Thank you, Jake! --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 22:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you're wrong. Most of the place names are of Serbian / Slavic origin, while some are of Roman origin.

Priština - derived from a Slavic form Prišьčь, a possessive adjective from the personal name Prišьkъ

Kosovska Mitrovica - means "Mitrovica of Kosovo", while "Mitrovica" itself stems from the name "Saint Demetrius" or "Sveti Dimitrije" in Serbian

Suva Reka - means "dry river" in Serbian

Podujevo - derives from founder of city Poduj which was an old Serbian name

Peć - known as Pescium during the Roman era, means "furnace" in Serbian

Orahovac - from the Serbian word orah (орах), meaning "walnut"

Kosovska Kamenica - based on the Serbian word kamen (a stone or a rock)

Kosovo Polje - literally "Kosovo Field"or "blackbird field" in Serbian

Istok - from the archaic version of the Serbian word istok (modern version istek), meaning "well, water source" referring to the springs of the Istočka river

Dragaš - named after Constantine Dragaš, a regional semi-independent lord in the fragmenting Serbian realm centered at Velbăžd

Đakovica - either derives from the Serbian word đak (pupil) from earlier d(i)jak or it is named after one of the large land-owners of the area, Jak Vula

Lipljan - in Roman times known as Ulpiana from which the name Lipljan is derived

Srbica - I'll let you guess this one on your own

Uroševac - derives its name from the medieval Stefan Uroš V of Serbia, Saint Uroš, who is commemorated by a cathedral in the town.. the Albanians called it Ferizaj because of some Albanian hotel in the area, owned by Feriz Shashivari

Novo Brdo - means "New Hill" in Serbian

Vučitrn - means "wolf's thorn", the name of the spiny restharrow plant in Serbian, known as Vicianum during the Roman era.

Obilić - refers to Miloš Obilić who is regarded as a Serbian hero of the 1389 Battle of Kosovo

And so on... If you look at the Albanian names "Prishtinë", "Mitrovicë", "Suharekë", "Podujevë", "Peja", "Rahovec", "Kamenica", "Fushë Kosovë", "Istog", "Dragash", "Gjakova", "Lipjan", "Novobërdë", "Vushtrria" or "Obiliq", you'll see that they're all mostly Serbian words "with an Albanian twist". --Cinéma C 22:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear: for the specific purpose of using names in the articles of the English-language Wikipedia, etymology is absolutely irrelevant. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Long explanation:
The place names used in our articles are decided in accoradence to our general naming conventions and the specific ones for geographic names. Their main criterion is that we "should prefer [the names] the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize".

Political or diplomatic considerations have no bearing on what names we use. Our Neutral point of view policy is clear on this: it's "Article naming" section currently states that "[w]here proper nouns such as names are concerned, disputes may arise over whether a particular name should be used. Wikipedia takes a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach in such cases, by using the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources."

In this case, double or "segmented" names in the form of Peć/Peja or Peć (Peja) are cumbersome complications that reduce readability. Remember: Wikipedia aims to be an English-language encyclopedia, not an excercise in diplomatic lingo (as the UN, EU and the British Foreign Office website are by their very nature).

Furthermore, the 3rd general guideline of the naming conventions for geographic names currently state: "The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article."

In the specific case of Kosovo, for a number of historical reasons, the English language has usually adopted or used the Serbo-Croatian place names of the region (see English usage related to Kosovo). This usage may change in the future, and Albanian names may become the norm in English texts, but this isn't the case yet. Only when/if that happens should Wikipedia reflect the change, instead of spearheading it.

In short: this article should use the names the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize (our main criterion), the names used as title of their respective articles (internal consistecy). In this case, those names happen to coincide with the Serbo-Croatian ones (with the sole exception of the capital, whose article is currently titled "Pristina" instead of "Priština"). - Best, Ev (talk) 15:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree, and here is my longer explanation.

In the English language, Prishtina is neither written in Albanian or Serbian, it's actually written as Pristina, (try for example, booking a flight to Kosovo). This solves the issue of the spelling of the word Pristina and also for places like Prizren.

For towns such as Mitrovica it is obvious that Kosovska Mitrovica is not the most recognizable name for the city (our main criterion). EV says in his talk, (see English usage related to Kosovo), This fact should be evident to anyone who has read English-language books, newspaper articles & publications on the Balkans in general or Kosovo in particular. EV uses the example of the Tim Judah book; Kosovo: War and Revenge, however, this book uses Mitrovica, not the Serbian spelling. (see: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0300097255/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page The other example used is; The Serbs: History, Myth, and the Destruction of Yugoslavia but this also uses the Albanian spelling of the same word (see: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0300076568/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link as do more recent books such as, Contested Statehood: Kosovo's Struggle for Independence (see: [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Contested-Statehood-Kosovos-Struggle-Independence/dp/019956616X/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242849413&sr=1-7

EV also uses the Human rights watch website as an example for Serbian place naming, yet more Organizations use the Albanian spelling:

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3650 ===

http://www.osce.org/documents/mik/2008/04/1191_en.pdf ===

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7520.doc.htm ===

here is a list of contemporary references to Mitrovica in the English language press or other materials most likely to be viewed in English:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7525916.stm ===

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1721389_1547061,00.html ===

http://www.sofiaecho.com/2009/05/15/719174_the-fortunes-of-kosovo ===

Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, what is and what isn't "English" is a matter of opinion. There are many different opinions on when a word or name is English and when not, on when it has entered the English language or remains "foreign". – English usage, on the other hand, is something entirely different and relatively easy to determine: what words or names are commonly used by English-language publications, irrespective of the word's or name's "Englishness" :-) Our naming conventions rely on English usage, not "Englishness".

You're right that Kosovska Mitrovica may well be more commonly referred to as "Mitrovica" alone (but not as "Mitrovicë"), just as our article on Kosovska Kamenica is currently under "Kamenica (Kosovo)" (but not "Kamenicë")... I had forgotten about that one.

In any case, I'm not using any of those books or organization as examples of usage, but as sources directly addressing the naming question, in terms of familiarity to English-speaking readers; as sources mentioning that the Serbo-Croatian forms are the ones the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize. - Best, Ev (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have shown the sources which use the spellings I pointed out, and not the Serbo-Croat names you mention. Your source's are only from 3 authors who address the naming question, I'm not interested in that. My point is that Mitrovica is the generally used name for the city, in terms of familiarity to English-speaking readers as the numerous sources above show. But lets see how the Wikipedia community feels, they can see our arguments and check out the sources. Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That point doesn't change the general picture: "Mitrovica" is the Serbo-Croatian name without the disambiguator "Kosovska" ('of Kosovo'). - Best, Ev (talk) 18:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I'll change it to Mitrovica. Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: this is article about the UNMIK district in Kosovo. For the former district of the Serbian government, see Kosovska Mitrovica District article.

I have provided numerous links to UN organizations in English which use the name Mitrovica. Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As is the case of any potentially controversial move of an article placed under probation by the Arbitration Committee, you may want to raise the issue at Talk:Kosovska Mitrovica first, and see what other editors think about it. - Ev (talk) 19:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, you said: Your source's are only from 3 authors who address the naming question, I'm not interested in that.

Our naming conventions for geographic names currently mention that a name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity". So, you should be interested in that. - Best, Ev (talk) 20:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's stop prolonging the inevetable, first you ask me to start a new talk page then you come back with another argument on here: The sources you provided were just opinions on usage for that particular book- an opinion. The name most recognizable should be used. And that is Mitrovica - neither Albanian nor Serbian. The name Kosovska Mitrovica is obviously a Serbian POV. Thanks, and don't forget; we should avoid conflicts on here wherever possible; Mitrovica is the most neutral and recognizable name for the City. if you can just change the name of the article (I don't know how), that would be much appreciated. Interestedinfairness (talk) 20:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just google for "kosovska mitrovica" and you will get 568,000 hits and googeling for "mitrovica -kosovska" gives you over 3 million hits, almost 6 times as much! Therefore please change into Mitrovica. TIA. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

googling "mitrovica -kosovska" is completely pointless, since the town is called "Kosovska" precisely to disambiguate it from other Mitrovicas such as Sremska Mitrovica or Mačvanska Mitrovica. --dab (𒁳) 21:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Even with "mitrovica -sremska -mačvanska -kosovska" you get over 1,5 million hits, almost 3x as much as for "kosovska mitrovica"! --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 21:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned before, the place to discuss the title of that specific entry is Talk:Kosovska Mitrovica. – And everyone, please, before discussing take the time to read our general naming conventions & the specific ones for geographic names. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

EV, you clearly lost the debate, so you tell everyone to go and repeat the same conversation on Kosovska Mitrovica talk, why didn't you talk there when you were writing a long response. Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could we please just stop this childish "you lost, I won" discussion? Ev does make a valid point: there should be an internal consistency in wikipedia, where the standards used in one article are also the standards used in other articles - so taking this question up to the Kosovska Mitrovica page is not at all foolish. Indeed, if all wikipedians agree that Mitrovica is the most common English name for Mitrovice/Kosovska Mitrovica, then this should also be reflected in the page of the city itself, and not just here. So this whole discussion shouldn't take place only here, but also on the Discussion page of the city. Khuft (talk) 21:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then stop spamming and go on the Mitrovica page and discuss. Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestedinfairness, my responses were addressing the original topic of this thread, the issue of Kosovo place names in general, not the specific case of a single city. - When it became clear to me that the topic had shifted to exclusively the name of Kosovska Mitrovica, I mentiond that "you may want to raise the issue at Talk:Kosovska Mitrovica". - Best, Ev (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema is edit warring as he undid tiwce without discussion! Please block him! Thank you. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 22:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:3RR. And you aren't discussing why you're reverting my edits. I explained about Noel Malcolm earlier. So please STOP REVERTING. Thanks, --Cinéma C 22:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, you did not. And saying he is ranting is nonsense, he is a well known historian! --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 22:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of people are well-known and biased at the same time. Does this surprise you? And me saying that he is 'ranting' was not my argument, so look harder. --Cinéma C 22:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me add that asking for me being blocked after removing a heavily POV piece of text, and then having to undo your revert is quite extreme for Wikipedia. I suggest you assume good faith next time before you attack an editor who thinks differently than you do. All the best, --Cinéma C 22:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Masu shut up, we don't block like that--Jakezing (Your King) (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I won't shut up but cite: "your edit... was reverted. You then reverted back. This usually wouldn't be a big deal, but on Kosovo, which is under article probation, it is enough to buy you a block.": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Interestedinfairness&diff=290311598&oldid=290305603 so if you do not want to apply double standard you have to block him alike. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 00:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why didn't you consult Cinema before starting a topic on him in the discussion? It makes it seem as though your real intentions lie in removing/barring the user from editing, rather than looking for an acceptable solution. --Bolonium (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has come to my attention that since going independent, the country has an Albanian majority. Albanians call the land by it's proper name "Kosova", not "Kosovo-Metohia" or "Kosovo" which were terms invented by that serial killer Milosevic when he was wooing Serbs with his ideas about nationalizm.^{[citation needed]} Can someone move the page because I cannot do it. We can't go on giving it old oboslete names and I don't have the "Move page" option, even if I log out I still don't have it. Thanx. Metrospex (talk) 15:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a redirect from Kosova to Kosovo, so both work. No renaming, moving, splitting, please as this is exactly what the Serbian POV-pushers try constantly to do. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the article is Kosovo not because that is what the Serbs call it, but because that is the form of the name used most often IN ENGLISH. Just as we have an article on Germany and not Deutschland, we have an article on Kosovo and not Kosova. IF the majority of English sources changes to using Kosova, THEN Wikipedia should change to Kosova. Unless and until that happens, the name is Kosovo. Notice that this has nothing to do with pro-Serb, pro-Albanian, or pro-anything positions. Khajidha (talk) 16:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Metrospex, let me show you why your post is completely unreliable.

• "since going independent, the country has an Albanian majority" - wrong, Kosovo has had a clear Albanian majority since after World War II, during which over 10,000 Serbs were killed and between 80,000 and 100,000 Serbs were expelled, while roughly the same number of Albanians from Albania were brought to settle in these Serbian lands. (Krizman, Serge. Massacre of the innocent Serbian population, committed in Yugoslavia by the Axis and its Satellite from April 1941 to August 1941. Map. Maps of Yugoslavia at War, Washington, 1943) Mustafa Kruja, the Prime Minister of Albania, was in Kosovo in June 1942, and at a meeting with the Albanian leaders of Kosovo, he said: "We should endeavor to ensure that the Serb population of Kosovo be – the area be cleansed of them and all Serbs who had been living there for centuries should be termed colonialists and sent to concentration camps in Albania. The Serb settlers should be killed." (Bogdanovic, Dimitrije. The Book on Kosovo. 1990. Belgrade: Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, 1985. page 2428.)(Genfer, Der Kosovo-Konflikt, Munich: Wieser, 2000. page 158.) With stating this, I propose that these facts be added to the article, with the references given.
• "Albanians call the land by it's proper name "Kosova"" - it's proper name is Kosovo, a Serbian word that means a land that is of a blackbird. The word kos means blackbird in Serbian.
• """Kosovo-Metohia" or "Kosovo" which were terms invented by that serial killer Milosevic when he was wooing Serbs with his ideas about nationalizm." Actually, the word Kosovo, as well as Metohija, existed about 7 - 8 centuries before Milosevic was born. Nice try though.
• "Can someone move the page because I cannot do it." - No, nobody is going to move it and please learn some history first. Thanks, --Cinéma C 19:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cinema please stay on topic, your rants about how many Serbs were expelled and so forth besides having no historical basis, are absolutely off topic. Thanks. Interestedinfairness (talk) 19:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised you're calling my well referenced text "rants", after you yourself used quotes from one of the most biased English historians out there... Also, was I off the topic of Kosovo? Or is it just not so convenient for you that I mentioned Serbs being expelled from Kosovo during World War II? I love when people use opinion to try to disprove facts... it's cute :) --Cinéma C 02:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me Cinema, but you don't know your facts. Kosovoa WAS KOSOVA and existed in "Yugoslavia" beside Serbia - not IN IT. Are you blind or can you not read? There is a source from the English GUARDIAN written by a neutral (not an Albanian) journalist by the name of Noel Malcolm who is an HISTORIAN, not a politician. He knows his Balkans history better than you, and better than me. He clearly says that Kosova was 75% Albanian and that the Serbs CONQUERED the land, and other Kosovans (real Kosovans) have told me personally that Metohia (or Methodia) was never part of the land's name, Milosevic added it when he visited Kosovo to rally support from his few supporters by promising them a "Greater Serbia" and Kosova was to be the first front. Like Hitler's Third Reich going into Poland. Eventually, and as we saw, Milosevic invaded all the Yugoslav republics but one by one, they defeated him: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Macedonia. Montenegro, horrified by Serb expansionaizm in the other republics, toed the line for a few more years to avoid bloodshed but this is most probably down to Montenegro only having a population of half a million or so. I know that the language is Kosova was Albanian and that Metohia was not a part of the name, and the article by Noel Malcolm agrees with it. And it was conquest, because Kosova NEVER LEGALLY WENT TO SERBIA, Serbs occupied it, and held it until all were forced into the new borders drawn by the west called "Republic of Yugoslavia" from when Kosova resumed it's self-governing and Serbia was outside it. You wanna learn your facts first, read neutral history, not your shitty "Serb" fascist publications. Metrospex (talk) 12:56, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I propose removing this article may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text. Please help improve this article by checking for inaccuracies tag. I have cleaned up the article substantially, and think it is now in a presentable shape. Bare in mind, just because Kosovo's status is disputed, this does not mean the article should be. Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed by who?? Serbia? and Russia? And backward dictatorships. Check their records they probably don't recognize half the world's states, I doubt they even recognize Israel, most Al-aeda countries don't. The US, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Belgium, Holland, all the rest of eastern Europe and others recognize it, so it is not disputed. Metrospex (talk) 13:00, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Check your facts. Spain, Greece, and most of eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova) do not recognize Kosovo. — Emil J. 13:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, if you look at the Ottoman period of the article, you will see it has been substaintily improved and made more accurate. Interestedinfairness (talk) 23:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it was butchered. I had to go back days to find a version not entirely comprised of fragmentary sentences and bizarre syntax. Please, review your edits in preview, making sure you've got actual sentences, before posting them. ThuranX (talk) 02:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

the unilateral editing has got to stop. "Substantial cleanups" are a no-go. The only way this article will proceed is step by step. You do a single edit addressing a single point, with a clean edit-summary of what you did, and then you check if your edit has consensus.

If people cannot follow this very simple procedure, we'll just revert to a stable version from March or April and your efforts will result in zero effect to article content. It's either the tedious way or nothing.

Also stop trying to stuff more material in the "history" section. Edits to the history section need to tighten things, resulting in a shorter summary, not lenghtening. If you want to add detail, edit the {{main}} articles linked. This isn't the only article dealing with Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 09:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, there are some {{disputed}} tags in the article. It may be a good idea to point out what exactly is disputed since the article has changed considerably since they had been placed. Otherwise, I agree with dab, the history section is too long and edits should be made in a clearer way. --Tone 12:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is unclear what the "disputed" tags are for. So Kosovo is disputed. That doesn't automatically make our article on Kosovo "disputed". It isn't even clear which side is complaining about "bias" here. Probably both. --dab (𒁳) 13:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with dab. I tried to make some sense of the history section last night but gave up (and I admit I didn't do a very good job of it).Brutaldeluxe (talk) 13:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]