Talk:Criticism of communist party rule/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

This article is created along the lines of "criticisms of socialism." The text was moved here from Communism, which is now finally turning into a standard encyclopedic entry. 172 10:20, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've taken up the herculean task of cleaning up the article, giving it a better structure and making it NPOV. I have to say I'm pretty proud of my work. :) Go and have a look. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Pretty good, but we have about 12 hours before a series of reverts and crys of "censorship of the worst kind" from you know who... I never realistically imagined it becoming so passable. Still, it could correct more flaws in Ultramarine's writing, such as more direct citations of authors such as Conquest, rather than nebulous references to "critics of communism." Vague passages lacking context like the following are still troubling: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in Communist states." Of course, one could just as easly write it following in (say) capitalism: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in capitalist societies." Instead, such a passage should cite the conclusions of specific authors, and how they pin the blame on communism. 172 | Talk 16:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I did my best to leave his anti-communist arguments virtually untouched, so as to prove that I am editing in good faith and want to reach a good quality, readable and NPOV article. Most of my heavy editing was done on the pro-communist arguments, which had been grossly misrepresented and dismissed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That's true. His writing can remain largely intact, but we can fill in the attributions within the text later on. 172 | Talk 16:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've taken another look over it and corrected one obviously false statement. Human rights violations haven't occured in ALL Communist states ALL the time. But other than that, I've left the human rights objections unchanged and unattributed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

At least not on the scale it implied; if one looked broadly enough, one could find human rights problems in any country at any time, including the U.S., which boasts the world's highest per capita prison population... Later on I'll take another look at the paragraph and turn in more into a summary of Conquest, Pipes, Rummel, et al. 172 | Talk 17:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I will remove the claims of original research and factual inaccuracy unless examples are presented. Ultramarine 05:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

172, you have violated Wikipedia policy by deleting The two-version template. Here is a link to my version [1] Ultramarine 06:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine, the issue is not the two-version template but your reversion of Mihnea's changes, which left the article much more readable, NPOV, and encyclopedic. 172 | Talk 06:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You have violated Wikipedia policy both by deleting the template and reverting which the template states should not be done without consensus on the talk page. Ultramarine 06:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

If you explain why you reverted her hard work on this page, then you one would have to revert back to an old version to begin with. 172 | Talk 06:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have incorporated many of the recent changes. In addition, I have added numerous references in the text and much new information, including much well-referenced critique now deleted. Ultramarine 06:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

In order to resolve the dispute, each of us will have to explain his edits and his objections to the other person's version. In meaningful detail. Generalities like "I have added many useful things" are quite worthless. In this spirit, I will begin:

1. My edits were motivated by three reasons:

(a) Structure - I found the structure of your article to be lacking in many respects.

(b) Accuracy - You repeatedly misrepresented the communist position, for example by claiming that "some" communists believe the term "communist state" to be an oxymoron (when in fact all of them do), or by refusing to acknowledge that there are, in fact, communist objections to the "communist states" as well.

(c) NPOV - Some parts of your article - for example the ones about "Lenin's famine" or "useful idiots" were pure, unredeemable POV.

2. With that in mind, my edits can be classified as follows:

(a) Corrections of structure - "Were the Communist states communist?" was replaced by "Communist critique of Communist states", since that is what it refers to. Marx's predictions, which are part of theory (not practice), and which were done using Historical Materialism, were moved to the section on Historical Materialism. The accusation of pseudoscience, which is also targeted at Historical Materialism (since that is the only part of Marxism that claims the status of science) was also moved to the appropriate section.

(b) Corrections of accuracy - The introduction was expanded to mention that the two kinds of criticisms (against communist states and against theory) are distinct. A header was added in order to point the reader to Criticisms of socialism and explain the purpose of this article. The fact that "communist state" is an oxymoron was mentioned, and a link was provided to the appropriate discussion within the communist state article. The sections on Historical Materialism and the LTV were improved, since you obviously either do not know what communists believe or you are trying to misrepresent those beliefs on purpose.

(c) Corrections of POV - The section on "Lenin's Famine" was not only hopelessly POV (taking the staunch anti-communist side in a controversial issue), but also unjustified. The rest of the article makes general observations, without going into specifics. If you want to go into specifics, shouldn't you start with more important events, like the Great Purge, the Great Leap Forward, etc.? The section on "useful idiots" doesn't even criticize communism at all, it just says that a number of Western right-wingers think that communists are idiots. That would be better suited for an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, a number of your section headings were POV, such as "real-world failures". Failures according to whom? Supporters of communist states certainly don't think they were failures - on the contrary!

And one final note regarding POV: You have the bad habit of sandwiching the opposing POV between two statements that support your POV. In other words, you follow this model:

1. Anti-communists say X.
2. Communists say Y.
3. But anti-communists reply with Z.

This is highly inappropriate, not to mention making it difficult for our readers to follow the article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You seem to think things that you dislike are POV and should be removed. My facts are well-referenced and if you want to remove them, show that the references are incorrect. Regarding predictions, they are tested in the real-world. A Google search shows numerous claims of "Marxist science" which thus can be criticized [2]. I incorporated a number of your changes that were improvements. Critique of Lenin is important, since many think that he was innocent and all evil started with Stalin.

-- Ultramarine

I am perfectly aware of the information that was removed. I have explained all my deletions and other edits in detail. Now it is time for you to explain yours. Please reply to all the points I have made above; if you do not, I will have no choice but to continue reverting. A Google search does indeed show many claims of "Marxist science" - from anti-communists. In this, as in so many cases, you insist on attacking a straw man. Marxists do of course claim that historical materialism is scientific, but not that all Marxism is a science. As for your Lenin quote, it does not appear in any of Lenin's works. It comes from a dubious source and you refuse to give any details surrounding it - such as the name of the secret document in which the quote is supposed to appear, the date of its publication, the subject of the secret document, or the method by which Edvard Radzinsky claims to have obtained it. And, as I have pointed out, your entire section on "useful idiots" is dedicated to citing Western authors who say that communists are idiots. This does not belong in criticisms of communism, but in an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, the reason you give for your bashing of Lenin clearly demonstrates that you fail to understand the concept of NPOV. It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to "correct" the "wrong views" that certain readers may hold. Our purpose is to inform the readers of all points of view, not preach one of them.

Your paragraph on social sciences displays a clear lack of understanding of the scientific method. Look into it.

Your two paragraphs on Cuba and Eastern Europe, however, are valid and I will attempt to integrate them in my version of the article. But not before we agree on a general structure, which is the first order of business. Leaving aside the content, do you have any objections to the structure of my version of the article? Yes or no?

And again, I am stressing the fact that I ask you to please reply to all my points above, which were specifically designed to initiate a dialogue. You would be well advised to make a similar list of the nature of your edits and the reasons behind them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)