Talk:American Family Association: Difference between revisions

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Archives

Archive 1: 2006-03-18—2007-07-17 Archive 2: 2007-07-17—2007-08-13 Archive 3: 2007-08-16—2007-09-21

Orpheus, I refer to this link that was just archived by CMMK [1]. You two have not been explaining over and over, you have been repeatedly dismissing sourced views. The "not a press release, detailed directory" objection simply doesn't hold. There is no policy on those points, and concisely presented sourced views do not apply. Summary style is WP style. I have explained that the important parts of what you keep deleting are simply deleted from the article. So the views are being suppressed. Two editors repeatedly deleting and dismissing reliable sources and discussion does not mean consensus. I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Wikipedia community input. You can keep trying to dismiss my comments if you like, but its not going to stop me from applying Wikipedia policies to the article. I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you with the NPOV tutorial section on Information Suppression [2] Hal Cross 02:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 02:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Wikipedia community input.

Good - please do so.

I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you

That would be an accusation then. There's plenty of insinuation in the other comments, and I for one am sick of both. There is no information suppression because the information you are trying to add is either already in the article or easily accessible from the issues link provided (linked as "The AFA raises and pursues these and other[12] issues").

Orpheus 07:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Orpheus, I will just have to explain it to you again. The first line states "A common way of introducing bias is by one-sided selection of information. Information can be cited that supports one view while some important information that opposes it is omitted or even deleted.". You are introducing bias by deleting the reliably sourced information presented in the correct context [3]. Notice I have not deleted any reliably sourced criticism of the AFA. Not one. You have been deleting repeatedly for a long time. The last line states "It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability." You are repeatedly deleting such information and thus preventing NPOV from being allowed. All relevant views should be allowed "summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability". The views are relevant to the beliefs and goals of the AFA and they should be presented without suppression. Please stop deleting such information from the article. The information is necessary to create an article that comes closer to featured article status. Hal Cross 07:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my effort to bring the article closer to featured article status, using the Islam article as an exemplar, I have added more belief related information to the belief and goal section [4]. Please offer input or suggestions here. Hal Cross 11:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Orpheus. You just deleted the new and more comprehensive belief section [5]. Now I am not going to say your actions are dismissive again, but you did rather say that it had been discussed "per lengthy talk page discussion" in your edit summary. Now I think you would have to admit that is not entirely accurate. Firstly there is more information there, and it is in a very different context. None of those things have ever been discussed. Furthermore, as per usual, and similar to CMMK's edit summary comments, you do not make adjustments, you simply delete without any suggestions on how to improve or adjust. Perhaps you would like to come back to the land of the living in terms of Wikipedia talkpage discussion? Or not! Hal Cross 16:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[6], [7] and [8]. Orpheus 17:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus, posting such links isn't helping anyone. All objections have been dealt with, and new material is presented. This version [9] is far more encyclopedic than the one you keep insisting upon [10]. Narrowing the views and suppressing their reasoning really is against NPOV policies. You are really not helping the article move towards featured article status. Please refrain from dismissing sourced relevant views, and please stop dismissing my efforts to accommodate NPOV policies. Hal Cross 19:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the new material posted:

• The Yahoo "action alert" is years out of date (2001 - hardly current). At best it should go in former (unsuccessful) boycotts, but we don't really need a comprehensive list of every boycott ever suggested by the AFA.
• The research by Paul Cameron is not published in a reputable, reliable academic journal and is therefore not a reliable source in this context. Additionally, Paul Cameron is a thoroughly discredited former psychologist who has been expelled by the American Psychological Association and censured by four professional organisations and a federal court. The Freund & Watson link does not suppport what you have written in the text.
• The bit about the AFA being under attack by the "homosexual community" is a slanted version of what's already in the article and is unnecessary.

Orpheus 07:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Yahoo information is supported by multiple citations. The Research by Cameron is what the AFA uses to support their views, Freund and Watson is also used by the AFA to support their beliefs. Yes the AFA has their own slant on criticism of themselves and that is their view. Removal of such reliably sourced views results in such relevant views being suppressed and thus bias is introduced to the article [11]. I am allowing all relevant views. You have disallowed specific AFA views giving the reason that the AFA is slanted. Wikipedia acknowledges that all have their viewpoint. I refer to you the basic point of NPOV, a simple formulation [12]. I also urge you towards an article that is closer to a featured article status. That involves adding an encyclopedic level of information to the article, rather than restricting it or narrowing it in information towards any particular bias. I have been adding information that comes from the beliefs of the AFA according to reliable sources. Their beliefs and reasoning needs to be presented in full if NPOV is to be allowed. You seem to be perpetually disallowing such information against the basic goals of Wikipedia - to present encyclopedic articles. I have not once removed or disallowed any reliably sourced critical information. In fact I have just added critical information. Please go back to NPOV policies, re-read and come back to this article with a fully informative encyclopedic article in mind. Hal Cross 09:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take your own advise and try to write "an article that is closer to a featured article status." Maybe you should read WP:IA and WP:FACR because your edits are not moving the article "closer to a featured article status." You continue to ignore any constructive criticism of your in inappropriate edits and you continue to accuse others of policy violations when they have not violated any policy; this is also very bothersome. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you care to give any specifics on your objections, rather than dismissively delete, I think your comment above may mean something. As it is your comment just looks like smoke. Please offer constructive comments on the specifics of the material rather than me or your feelings about WP editing. I refer to your comments and your deletions and not to you. Hal Cross 03:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your "WP editing" is directly related "to your comments and your deletions," which are made by you...—Christopher Mann McKay^talk 03:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CMMK your comment is unconstructive. You have still not explained your objections to the sourced material in question. For example, please explain why you object to the sourced and supported AFA views on the link between homosexuality and pedophilia being presented into the article. Hal Cross 10:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus. You have once again removed this information from the beliefs and goals section [13].To my knowledge it is all reliably sourced, adds information to the article and is relevant to beliefs and goals. Despite your edit summary, your reasons for removing the information are still totally unclear. Please explain your reasons for removing each piece of information in turn. Hal Cross 02:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly there is a need to improve the beliefs and goals section. What are your suggestions? Hal Cross 11:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've already made them, below. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This information was removed from the article: [14] [15]. That’s a lot of information and a lot of explanation of AFA views. Removing the information creates a POV fork. Again it suppresses the views of the AFA for specific issues. I see nothing wrong with re-organizing or adding to it, but removing it suppresses encyclopedic information about the views of the AFA.

Also, this information is relevant to the boycotts section: The AFA have expressed concern that Yahoo is encouraging pedophilia by providing sites that contain sexually explicit pictures of children (PR Newswire 2001) The AFA's are running a petition drive urging Yahoo! to eliminate all such pornography from its site[16]. Orpheus removed it saying its too old. The AFA is still here, Yahoo is still here, and Yahoo are still selling porn of all descriptions and it is still being viewed by pedophiles, homosexuals or any other category of porn viewer. It’s a relevant addition to the boycotts section, is current and ongoing. Feel free to offer any reason for why you don't want this information in the article. Hal Cross 02:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are your suggestions on the Yahoo issue? Hal Cross 11:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Same as they were the first time - it's not as notable as some of the other boycotts, so it's not a high priority to keep. They could have equally said the same thing about Google, or Comcast, or AOL, or Joe's Fish Shack, or any other company with a public ftp or web server that's been used to host porn. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CMMK, you added this to the article; [17]. Do you have the actual press release from the AFA in this regard? Also, I am just wondering the sort of bias the statement has. To me it looks quite one sided. What do you think? Hal Cross 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are your suggestions on how to improve this piece of information? Hal Cross 11:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

CMMK, you removed this multiple sourced view [18]. Please explain why you removed it? Hal Cross 03:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it not obivous? In addition to what Orpheus stated, Wikipedia is NOT a place to reference faulty studies just because the AFA journal did a news story on it. It has no relevance... —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 03:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its an AFA view and you are not supposed to edit with reference to your OR on the correctness of the study. If you disagree that men seeking and engaging in sexual activities with boys is not a sort of homosexual behavior, I think the vast majority of the world would disagree with you. Its the sourced view that counts, rather than mine or your's. Its an encyclopedic fact and relevant to the homosexual agenda. Its a specific view from the AFA and is clearly stated. Its also neutrally stated and given with due context. Hal Cross 03:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The category dispute, especially concerning the homophobia category, is still ongoing. I added the category disputed tag and kept removal to a minimum so that the rest of the article could be improved. The dispute continues, as far as I am concerned the homophobia category is:

• Accusatory in this case
• Pejorative in this case
• Totally unbalanced. Its applied with only one particular view in mind
• Circumvents NPOV policy specifically because it cannot be annotated
• Lists are a much more appropriate alternative

Therefore, the category should be removed. Hal Cross 03:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does anybody other than Hal Cross think this? The proposed solution is here: Talk:American Family Association/Archive 3#Category. Comment here if you agree or disagree with it. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree obviously. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. The solution here is to remove inappropriate categories. There is no point switching one inappropriate category with another inappropriate category. The pedophilia category is more relevant and appropriate than both the homophobia ones. Not that I am offering it as a solution, just that the homophobia and homophobic violence cats are totally out of order here, Hal Cross 11:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nobody is suggesting Category:Homophobic violence for this article. Nobody has ever suggested that category for this article. That category was specifically created so that the American Family Association was not associated with organisations engaging in homophobic violence. It shows a remarkable lack of reading comprehension on your part that you are still suggesting that, after being corrected several times. Orpheus 12:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I made some changes to the lead section as per WP:LEAD. [19]. The article main body seems to be under attack specifically from some editors who are persistently removing the sourced views of the AFA. So I'm improving the lead as per [20] "relative emphasis in the lead should not reflect the body if the body is haphazard or missing critical information.". Feel free to discuss here Hal Cross 04:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to make a suggestion. Hal Cross 11:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Already did, below. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus and CMMK. You keep deleting the section on boycotts including the reasoning for those boycotts [21]. That creates a POV fork. Here is the relevant section [22]. It states:

• A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.

You have been removing the information in a way that hides AFA viewpoints for why they are boycotting those particular companies. I have no problem at all with re-arranging the a viewpoints to make them more concise and information rich. But repeatedly removing them from the article is unacceptable POV pushing. Please stop deleting the sourced views of the AFA. Hal Cross 12:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 13:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a list of boycotts. The article doesn't need to have a list of every single boycott the AFA has ever been involved in. It's fine to move that list to a sub-article which is linked using the main template. A POV fork is where you end up with two articles presenting different sides of an issue. That is not the case here. Orpheus 15:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a sub-article isn't that bad an idea. I may create it if for no other reason to cease this latest squabble here. WAVY 10 15:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Wavy 10. I really have no objection to sub-articles or whatever as long as the views are presented clearly and encyclopedically. I am open to any of your suggestions and would really like some advice on how to proceed. Hal Cross 15:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus, you are dismissing WP regulations. Read it again, its just above in this section just a few paragraphs up next to the bullet point. Removing the large portion of the section is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Sure you can have the other article and I can fill it out with more details about why the AFA has boycotted those companies. But the specific views about specific companies and why they are boycotted have to be present in the main article itself, otherwise AFA views are suppressed. I can see a lot of ways to make that section richer and I will do that no matter how many times you try to remove the views of the AFA. Deleting those views is completely unacceptable, just as it says above. It removes encyclopedic information about the subject. It impoverishes the article. It weakens the knowledge content of the article. It disinforms the reader about specific views of the AFA. I would like to remind you yet again as you don't seem to have grasped this basic fact about encyclopedic editing on Wikipedia; All relevant views are to be presented. I am allowing all relevant views. Please watch more carefully and learn from me and other concerned Wikipedia editors and allow all relevant views. This point is really very important and I hope you will try your very best to understand at least this elementary concept fully before you make any more edits or comments on Wikipedia. I will be extremely happy to make that boycott section more concise and encyclopedic. I can present the rationales for why the AFA decided to boycott certain groups of companies very very clearly. There seems to be a lot of room for that. I doubt whether an anti-AFA editor will like the result though. Never mind, Wikipedia is not about what we like. Its about making a good encyclopedia. Hal Cross 15:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wavy 10, there is no need for two sub-sections on boycotts; one is sufficient. Having two sub-articles for boycotts would not "cease this latest squabble here." I have no idea what you meant by such a strange comment. Please elaborate. (diff) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher Mann McKay (talk • contribs) 23:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, having two sub-articles on boycotts really would be a POV fork! I don't think that's what WAVY10 was suggesting though - looks like a misunderstanding to me. It's an easy mistake to make with all the reverting going on. Orpheus 00:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus and CMMK. Some editors are doing their best to solve problems here. Your constant removal of relevant views requires that certain adjustments be made to the information and structure of presentation. As far as I can see, it looks like AFA views will inevitably be presented far more clearly than some would like. But thats what happens when extreme demands are made. If you want extra support for a particular view, more support and clarity will be found. As it is, the article is growing more clear and information rich in terms of AFA views, and I know its a real shocker, but the information is becoming more and more solidly supported, which makes deletionism all the more wrong. The facts about the homosexual agenda, obscenity, pedophilia, and the link between homosexuality and child molestation are not easy to countenance for some people. Those items will probably be removed by vandals and POV pushers for as long as this article exists. But Wikipedia has mechanisms and protections that can deal with any such agenda. And I am working on making such trouble as positive in outcome as possible. Hal Cross 02:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Hal Cross and comment if you feel the urge. Orpheus 09:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, any feedback on how to better constructively edit here will be much appreciated. Hal Cross 10:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with using "Homophobia" as the section title? I see a NPOV violation in having "Accusations of homophobia," because "accuse" means to "charge with a fault or offense"[23], so having "accusations" implies the AFA's homophobic views and actions are wrong or faulty. Homophobia, which means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals"[24] is used to describe the AFA actions for that sub-section, as all the info in that sub-section is related to homophobia--a neutral term that does not imply something negative. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 10:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm happy with homophobia - the change I made was an attempt to come down the middle instead. "First amendment rights" is too much of a euphemism. Orpheus 11:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes having accusations does imply that anti-AFA views are faulty. Its inappropriate. So is using the term Homophobia. It implies that the AFA are homophobic. Stick with specifics. The specific controversy is over first amendment rights, from all POVs. Hal Cross 12:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. The specific controversy mentioned is a private organisation labelling the AFA as intolerant for their opinions on gay rights. If it was the government telling them to put a cork in it, then it would be a first amendment issue. The first amendment doesn't apply to relations between private parties. Orpheus 13:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I'm talking about the CyberPatrol and SPLC parts of that section. The part about the SF city council is arguably first-amendment related, although the trial judge disagreed. Orpheus 13:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the AFA v. SF reference be moved to the "Legal activism" section? Although SF was criticizing AFA, the reference is mainly dealing with legal activism by the AFA. Any objections to moving the AFA v. SF reference? —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 17:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good solution to me - they initiated it, after all, so although it is controversy, it's arguably activism rather than criticism. Orpheus 17:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These boycotts are already listed in this article. The content could easily be integrated into what is now a relatively small section. Some of the content may not be notable or require inclusion, and other parts are repeated here, so it should fill out the section nicely, instead of breaking it up unnecessarily. --Cheeser1 18:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason I'm in favour of a separate article is that it lets you list more boycotts and be less discriminate over which ones you include. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, however! It was more a way to cut the Gordian knot of this talk page debate. If we can get back to a reasonable discussion over what's notable enough for the article and what isn't, then I'll be wholeheartedly in favour of merging it back in. On the other hand, if we're just going to end up with a comprehensive list of every boycott ever proposed, under the umbrella of not "suppressing" information, then it's better in a separate article. Personally I would prefer the former. Orpheus 18:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for making concise sections. There is definitely a way to condense the information by grouping it correctly and really clearly. I was never into huge lists of anything. The only reason for restoring the list before was so I could work on making it concise, total deletionism being completely unnecessary as usual. Hal Cross 19:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely Orpheus, I agree. However, we do not need such a comprehensive list. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, we need not keep records of all events. Instead, we are attempting to write an article about the AFA. We need not include the minutes of their meetings, lists of their protests, logs of their member roster, or things like that. Certainly, the boycotts can be mentioned, and those that have elicited significant media coverage can be mentioned - and they can be mentioned here, not in a laundry-list of boycotts. --Cheeser1 19:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in favor of making the boycotts section/article shorter; however, I think if we are going to list the boycotts, then we need to list the reasons why the AFA boycotted the organizations, which makes it very difficult to make the information concise. This is why I created the separate list article and summarized the list article on the Boycotts section of this article. I believe this is the best route, but I’m open to other suggestions on how to deal with this issue. I think merging the list (in it’s current form) back into the article is a bad idea, because the section would be too long (and can potentially become a lot longer) and if sections are too long they should have their own article. We would need to shorten the article then merge it, if that is the consensus. As for notability, if the boycotts are covered by multiple reliable sources, then I don't see a reason to exclude any of them. If there is a notability issue with having a separate boycotts article, then we should nominate it for WP:AfD and get broader input on the issues instead of making that decision on this talk page. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 19:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, CMMK, giving rationales for the boycotts will make them all the more concise as its a type of grouping. It may also cause conflict though, because those rationales seem to be the main "objectionable" content of the list of boycotts. Wikipedia process may be able to handle it. I trust WP will make maintaining such information far easier when its rules have evolved after a few years. Hal Cross 20:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An AfD is not how one elicits comments from the wider community (in fact, talking on the talk page is how one does that - an RfC might be necessary, but AfDs are not supposed to be there just to get people's opinions). Each particular boycott may not be notable - if they are notable in relation to the AFA then they should be here unless there is a huge list of notable/important boycotts. In all honesty, the details and specifics of each protest may not merit inclusion. Being mentioned on the news may be reliably sourced, but it doesn't necessarily merit inclusion. A string of unrelated or tangentially related boycotts doesn't necessarily meet WP:N, and while branching-off might save space, it doesn't change the fact that this content may not merit inclusion at all. --Cheeser1 20:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had envisioned a concise section that explains the type of things the AFA boycotts companies for. E.g. for encouraging pedophilia, company 1, 2 3, for encouraging obscenity, 123 and for supporting the homosexual agenda 123. That could probably be done pretty concisely in a para or two and it doesn't involve removing AFA viewpoints. All relevant views can be added in the same way. Hal Cross 20:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An AfD is how one elicits comments from the wider community for if the article should be deleted/merged; I know AfD is not for comments in general not relating to issues with deleting or merging the article. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 20:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had envisioned a concise section that explains the type of things the AFA boycotts companies for. I don't think that's necessary at all, or a good idea. Much better to pick a few representative samples, based on notability, and then provide a link to the AFA's page that lists all their boycott efforts in case anyone wants to look them all up. Same as with the issues section - being comprehensive is not necessary. The problem with the grouping you're suggesting is that it leaves out enough information that people might get the wrong idea about individual cases, without solving the issue that there's so many boycotts it's not helpful to list every single one. Orpheus 22:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We would need to shorten the article then merge it, if that is the consensus. I agree with that - the main difficulty as far as I see is picking which ones to include. Once we've come to a consensus on how many, then we can pick the N most notable and write a brief summary on each. That should keep the future length in check as well - if a particularly important or notable boycott comes along then it can knock the least notable one off the list. Orpheus 23:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We should really go the other way - notability of each incident needs to be established. We can worry about how many once we figure out how many actually merit mentioning. --Cheeser1 02:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, fair point. I think the most important ones are:

* WaldenBooks, because it resulted in legal action.

* Walt Disney, because it produced a lot of media attention.

* Abercrombie & Fitch, ditto.

* Target, to tie in the Christmas stuff.

* Ford, because it's a big campaign and a big target.

* IKEA, because it's international in scope (they use the same catalogues all over the world).

Orpheus 05:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Decency related boycotts should be priority. The AFA was started as a Decency promotion interest and anything regarded as indecent is key. Thus, homosexual agenda, pedophilia, pornography related ones are priority. Thus, Yahoo, Calvin Klein, Ford. There are other first amendment related issues such as the "Holiday Trees" boycotts that do deserve mention because they add interest and perspective to the article and touch so many people. Hal Cross 05:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cheeser1. I think I have the information sorted out now. I just added some to the article. Please check it for appropriateness concerning the selfpub policies [25]. I'm open to all suggestions Hal Cross 03:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You've just added different self-published sources into the article, besides the AFA. This isn't an improvement, even if the text is longer or if there are more citations. --Cheeser1 03:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again Cheeser1. I'll put the other non self-pub refs in then. Hal Cross 03:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the lead and the beliefs section, there seems to be a fair bit of overlap. I think we should have a paragraph, two at the most above the title page which introduces the AFA and outlines briefly what they do and what they aim for, and then no "Beliefs & Goals" section. Thoughts? Orpheus 05:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There can be a beliefs section with a similar format to this featured article [26]. It could be more concise in parts but basically organization is what is needed. It would also help to place the beliefs encyclopedically in relation to majority Christian beliefs, just to give it appropriate context. The goals part could be joined with the boycotts section and additional prayer activities, advice about legal rights, charity, and so on, can be added also. Hal Cross 05:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Islam is a religion with 1500 years of history and a billion adherents. The AFA is an advocacy group that wants less smut and swearing on television. I think there's a bit of a difference in approach! What's notable, and encyclopedic, is what the AFA do. What they say they believe is useful background material, but it shouldn't be the main focus of the article. Where they stand in respect to mainstream Christianity is a useful set of information to add, although one would first have to define mainstream Christianity - not an easy task. Orpheus 05:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot to be said about AFA in relation to their mainstream Christian beliefs. That will be very easy to determine with reference to the parts of the Bible the AFA and mainstream Christian groups refer to. Its how those beliefs are associated with the decency drive that is important. Christian groups have always had guidelines for how to deal with homosexual behaviour, bestiality, pedophilia, and so on, that involve prayer, chastity, and others that involve punishment as a deterrent. So there are comparisons and contrasts that will add useful context. AFA doesn't work on physically punishing such behavior as some other religions do, the AFA beliefs tend to use the concept of loving your neighbour and prayer for deliverance instead. Its an interesting subject and should enrich the article. Hal Cross 06:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's going to be very difficult to do that without any original research, but a comparison would be useful if you can find a well-sourced one to use. I don't really think that the AFA's views on bestiality and pedophilia are particularly notable. They're against them, like most of society, and I don't see any particular need to emphasise them in this article. Orpheus 07:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Orpheus and have attempted to make the correcting changes: diff. Any input on my edits? Any suggestions or changes? Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 06:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus, you seem to be making quite negative comments when it comes to presenting the views of the AFA. The information is all freely available on the web, and it can all be presented without any OR and without any spin. Its inevitable that the pedophilia and bestiality issues will be presented as they are key reasons for the AFA voicing opposition to the homosexual agenda. Sure, the vast majority feel the same way, but its the specific views of the AFA that need to be presented if we are to avoid information suppression [27]. I think most Wikipedia editors would see that as only fair. All relevant views and so on... Hal Cross 11:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "inevitable" that the article has to include material on pedophilia and bestiality, and why the AFA thinks that having gay people out will inexorably lead to those things. What the AFA thinks on every issue isn't really encyclopedic - what's more important is what they do, and the opinions they hold that receive reliable third party coverage. Apart from aiming for a complete catalogue of their viewpoints, what's your reason for putting the material in? Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They are relevant views and when supported with reliable sources they explain not only what the AFA do, but they give views on reasons for why. Thats inevitable and encyclopedic.Hal Cross 16:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In line with the Wikiquette recommendations of two seperate editors [28] [29], I removed the AFA mission statement. If you have anything to say about that, reply here. Hal Cross 17:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me, but as a suggestion for the talk page, I think it would be more productive to have post-WQA discussion in a new section (like this one) rather than going back and adding to older sections. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would help if you took care to answer all questions presented, especially if the issue has been presented as a section in itself. Those questions are often highly specific, and stating you have already answered them is unhelpful when they involve new edits and adjustments that were requested by yourself in prior discussions. Attending carefully to discussion is important, especially when others are making the effort to make adjustments and answer your objections. Thank you. Hal Cross 16:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What question in particular are you talking about? Orpheus 03:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For example, the section on lead section improvements [30] requests discussion on those improvements, [31] that include information on the AFA’s fight against pedophilia supported by reliable mainstream source. The information was deleted by CMMK[32], without discussion. Your subsequent suggestions ignore the actual specifically sourced improvements made. Please make sure to discuss the specific suggested improvements, especially those where editors took the time to supply a source according to Wikipedia policies. Hal Cross 04:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in that particular case it seems that you deleted the text "that promotes conservative Christian values." and didn't add anything - correct me if I'm wrong. In addition, you deleted five sources for the sentence fragment you took out. I don't quite see what you mean about the AFA's "fight against pedophilia" (a loaded term that should be avoided, by the way). Orpheus 04:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, there was also the 200,000 members claim that you added (also nothing to do with a fight against anything). You already had a third opinion on this, from Jaakobou. Orpheus 04:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pedophilia is considered indecent, wrong, and obscene by the vast majority of people. Or would you disagree? The fact is supported in that edit by mainstream source.

I removed the part on Conservative Christian values because the first sentence of the article should really be as neutral as possible. I could have placed "Traditional Family Values" instead as it is what the AFA state, it is more true to the title "The Americal Family Association", and it covers the AFA's broader concerns. It doesn't matter how many sources you or CMMK put there to try to keep it in the first sentence of the article, and it doesn't even matter if the AFA use the term themselves. Its still politically loaded. Instead of insisting on the term Traditional Family Values, I decided to simply remove the whole argument from the first line. I already said I have no objection to the statement being in the article elsewhere. But making a neutral encyclopedic statement in the first line is a good idea I believe.

The 200000 members figure is supported by sources that were placed into the archives without you discussing them. There are other sources that place the figure as higher, but I haven't pushed that point. So as you see, there are NPOV related issues to discuss here. Progression towards a more comprehensive article will be very difficult if you tend to ignore constructive suggestions. Hal Cross 05:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pedophilia is considered... The diff you posted didn't even mention pedophilia. Regardless, I agree with your sentence, but fail to see the relevance to this article. The vast majority of people think kicking bunny rabbits is wrong too, should we put a section on the AFA's views on animal cruelty?

I removed the part on Conservative Christian... I disagree that it's a loaded term. The fact that it's used by such a wide spectrum of sources suggests it has passed into the vernacular. Is there any serious dispute that the AFA are a) conservative and b) Christian? The only people I know of who might dispute that are the libertarian wing of the conservative movement, who aren't keen on being associated with groups like the AFA.

The 200000 members figure You posted one source, the home page of a state affiliate of the AFA. That's not a reliable source. If the other sources are reliable, post them! Like I've said before, this isn't an adversarial contest. There's no scenario where you agree to reduce the membership claim from 250,000 to 200,000 if we'll drop a category. That's simply not how Wikipedia works. If the information you have is reliably sourced, stick it in the article. Orpheus 05:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orpheus, you are wrong. The diff I posted does mention pedophilia [33]. Its written very clearly. If you would care to look up the source and read the actual literature, you would see that the AFA runs boycotts to prevent pedophilia, not just because it is indecent, and obscene, but because it is illegal. I know you fail to see the relevance for the AFA pedophilia information, but the sourced literature permits it.

We can agree or disagree that Conservative Christian is a loaded term. The same goes for Traditional Family Values. My solution was to simply remove the whole argumentative problem from the first line. Its a very reasonable solution that I believe many reasonable editors would apply in this situation.

The figures I have are reliably sourced. I will indeed stick them in the article, and I'll make sure the facts are written very clearly. Again, vis the AFA anti-pedophilia literature, please do not ignore constructive suggestions that include reliable sources. Hal Cross 07:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(od) Ah yes, I see the sentence you're talking about. For the benefit of others, the sentence is The AFA provides research and information on what they see as indecent influences, such as pornography, or what they refer to as the "homosexual agenda which they believe goes against first amendment rights and will increase the incidence of child abuse and pedophilia,", which was changed to The AFA provides research and information on what they see as indecent influences, such as pornography, or what they refer to as the "homosexual agenda."

The AFA are of course free to believe what they want, but this article isn't really the place for that claim, and you haven't given any source for it except their own web page. The place that claim belongs (if well sourced) is the article on the "homosexual agenda", which is already linked. Saying that the AFA runs boycotts to prevent pedophilia is definitely not a neutral statement, because a) there's no evidence they actually do it for that reason apart from their own claims and b) there's no evidence that it's an effective method of reducing pedophilia.

Regarding "conservative Christian" - does anybody else think it's a loaded term that requires removing from the opening paragraph? I'm not sure exactly what the reason for removing it is - it's used very widely in the media.

Perhaps you should just go ahead and put the figure (and reference) into the article, instead of continually saying how reliable your sources are. There doesn't seem much point discussing it until that happens.

Orpheus 08:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong again, Orpheus. There is another source there which explicitly shows the AFA's concern about increases in pedophilia caused by indecent influences. Its a reliable source. In fact at the time I was referring specifically to the Wikipedia guidelines on reliable online sources: [34] which says to use an online source about itself in combination with other sources. The AFA source in itself may even satisfy this guideline [35]. In any case, you seem to still be lacking acknowledgment of certain facts about the edit I made, and I believe other editors would find that troubling.

I've already explained the reason for removing the conservative Christian line from the first line, but I will explain more clearly. There are other terms one can use, and we could argue all day over which. Having Wikipedia state that the AFA are "an organization that promotes Conservative Christian values" can be considered a narrow way to describe the AFA. Its a rather narrow view of the AFA. Traditional Family Values will be broader and more information encompassing and will take the narrow political bias out. The AFA often appeal to Muslims and other religious denominations. Their campaigns involve members of the public from all walks of life, who may join a boycott and never even consider conservative values, or even Christian worship. The AFA seems mostly to be about American Families, and Decency. Its fine by me to leave all of that complicated and argumentative stuff out of the first line though.

The reason I am discussing here now is to determine what sources I need to make the article more comprehensive, and to point your errors out to you. You seem to be blanket dismissing all AFA publications as if they are all automatically unreliable. They are not all to be automatically dismissed according to the Wikiquette editors and the WP reliable sources guidelines. You seem to have ignored points of discussion, WP guidelines, and sources, and that is quite unconstructive. Hal Cross 09:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]