Talk:2023 Dublin riot

article should probably be locked rn, because it's a current event — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpk365 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Agree. Someone just tried to make an unfounded guess as to the suspect's origin. Borgenland (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The opening paragraph also has this statement which is highly problematic and has no source:

"Across Europe and North America, violent crime has exploded with the influx of illegal migrants." 76.11.170.92 (talk) 14:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

That's been reverted several times but IPs keep imposing it. Borgenland (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Inhuman way to refer to the majority Wikipedia users worldwide. Feeling special or more human than the rest? Maybe feeling more entitled too? Also, where's the lie on a fact? You seem much more overly worried to hide an statement rather than looking up for any data to contribute into this incomplete article, which is curiously lacking of something very important. Look, an IP did an important part of that primordial job for you! https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-5-things-know-far-dublin-stabbing-suspect https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2023/11/23/dublin-stabbing-attack-live-updates-three-children-injured-chief-suspect-detained/ Maybe is it too controversial for you, little amigo? Now you can use your glorious talent to add those links to the article -Oh, please! Do it so! For I'm just an IP, and nothing more than that!-, then shut up and let the other user "impose" those 15 words, which are quite related to similar attacks previously reported in Europe in recent times, therefore necessary to contextualize the current situation in the continent during the late years -noticing patrons in groups of people and their actions is not any form of "imposition"-. Then turn off your laptop, walk it and take some fresh air, but hopefully without a knife on your pocket. Many thanks for your work on this article, hope you help to build an article that is well-referenced and well-written this time. Now start contributing for free! 2800:150:141:1AE9:4D0B:45E7:23AE:16BD (talk) 19:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

2800:150:141:1AE9:4D0B:45E7:23AE:16BD, your taunting and insulting remarks violate Wikipedia's requirement to be civil and to "refrain from making personal attacks". If you continue in this vein, you may be blocked from editing. Spideog (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/

Mostly confirming the identity but not sure how useful that is.©Geni (talk) 00:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

2023 Dublin unrest → 2023 Dublin riot – Both domestic and international media are majoritively referring to this event as a "riot" rather than simply "unrest". Examples:

• The Irish Times
• The Irish Independent
• TheJournal.ie
• BBC News
• The Guardian
• Sky News
• The Independent (UK)
• Sidney Morning Herald
• ABC News

It also follow previous Wikipedia naming conventions; see 2006 Dublin riots. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:17, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Comment: It'd be 2023 Dublin riot, with "riot" lowercase. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 06:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, sorry, that's an incorrect capitalisation on my part. 2023 Dublin riot would be the correct capitalisation. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree. I came here searching on info about the 'riot' I'd heard about. Toothpickdog (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support as per media conventions. Borgenland (talk) 07:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Adding to emphasize that government statements are not the sole WP:RS in this case as others would prefer.. Borgenland (talk) 12:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support as per previous Dublin riot articles: 2006 Dublin riots and 2021 Dublin riots. Edl-irishboy (talk) 08:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Against I think the media has blown up this event, and given the current nature of the article, it should instead be renamed to 2023 Dublin stabbing attack or something of the sort, with a sub-section then detailing the unrest/riot which followed it and which, according to the police, was caused by a small group and did not involve ordinary Dubliners in any way. I am basing this off the police and government statements, which in this case I find somewhat more believable than media reports. --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The events have been reported by reliable, sober media as a riot. The media have not "blown up" or sensationalized the events. The nation's president, taoiseach, tánaiste, and many teachtaí dála made public statements expressing their shock and alarm at the extent and intensity of the violence.

Footage of the riot from multiple sources show clear evidence that the events were sensational, and required no colourful misrepresentation.

The large crowd (500 rioters) you describe as a "small group" caused widespread mayhem, injury, and serious damage to the point of complete destruction to people, property, and vehicles. The entire city was disrupted, transport services were cancelled throughout the city, and even into the following day, streets were blocked to traffic while the cleanup of the wreckage continued. Spideog (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Against for same reasons. Smefs (talk) 09:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support this approach to renaming. The attack should be the focus, with the unrest/riot as a reaction to that. Masem (t) 13:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support. It was a full-blown riot. Three or four streets were taken over. Cars, buses and trams were set on fire. The area was impassible for seven hours. Shop windows were smashed and the shops looted. Riot police were deployed. Basing this off the police statements, "Thursday night's scenes were unprecedented in the modern era in Dublin, far eclipsing the violence and criminal damage witnessed during the 'Love Ulster' riots of 2006" (Irish Times). The stabbings – awful as they were – would not have got a Wikipedia article had it not been for the riot that followed. Per CeltBrowne, British and American news outlets are calling it a riot. Scolaire (talk) 10:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support as per media conventions and previous Dublin riot articles. Autarch (talk) 11:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support per all above. S5A-0043^Talk 11:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support per media, asweel it semes that riot is more appropriate when there was loating and distruction.Unrest can make it sound like a peceful protest, which it was not. Roma enjoyer (talk) 12:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support as per media conventions and previous Dublin riot articles. Spleodrach (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support per above. StairySky (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support because the event is universally described in all media reports I have read and watched (a few dozen) as a "riot", because it clearly fits the definition of a riot, and because the term "unrest" is too mild to denote the scale and intensity of the violence that occurred, which has shocked Ireland. Spideog (talk) 14:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Against. If the Kenosha unrest is not categorised as a riot then this shouldn't be either. Wikipedia is no place for political bias. 78.16.185.23 (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The term "riot" (or, indeed, "unrest") contains no political leaning or bias; it is a neutral, non-political term which implies no left, right, centre, or any other political slant. It simply denotes a violent crowd disturbance.

Here are some dictionary definitions:

• an occasion when a large number of people behave in a noisy, violent, and uncontrolled way in public
• A wild or turbulent disturbance created by a large number of people.
• A violent disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled for a common purpose.
• a disturbance made by an unruly mob or (in law) three or more persons; tumult or uproar
• A riot is a violent outburst by a crowd.
• A tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by a large group of people, often involving violence or damage to property.
• When there is a riot, a crowd of people behave violently in a public place, for example they fight, throw stones, or damage buildings and vehicles.

These are unpolitical meanings and the violent events in Dublin fit all of these definitions. Spideog (talk) 17:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Unless the Kenosha unrest article is renamed to "Kenosha riots" then referring to the unrest in Dublin last night as a riot is not in line with Wikipedia's naming conventions when it comes to other, more recent cases of civil unrest in the world. All of the definitions you listed here are as fitting for the Kenosha unrest as they are the Dublin unrest. Given that the unrest in Kenosha was significantly more destructive than the unrest in Dublin last night, I think it is fair to say that the double standard here is political in nature and also in violation of NPOV. 78.16.185.23 (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

You claim that using the word "riot" is "political bias". Please support your claim by explaining why you think "riot" is "bias" but "unrest" is not. All you have done so far is claim that it is bias without furnishing a persuasive argument. Show your evidence that "riot" is bias, and is the word "riot" biased for or against the rioters? Spideog (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

While there is a rough article naming convention for violence and deaths, it only covers a articles that involve a single individual. The naming convention for events like those of this article is NCEVENTS. While that does use a When, Where, What format as its primary scheme, it also tells us to defer to the descriptors used by reliable sources for the What.

In the case of the Kenosha unrest, it looks like reliable sources describe it as an unrest. However for this article, it seems as though reliable sources are now calling it a riot. While you may be right that this is a double standard, it is a double standard that is wholly out of our control. Per NPOV, we follow follow how reliable sources describe any given topic, and we do not lead the sources.

If you wish to get the Kenosha events described as a riot instead of an unrest, then you need to take that up with reliable sources directly. Not us. Until reliable sources call it the Kenosha riots, we cannot do so ourselves. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support: I agree, the use of unrest seems to me a little bit forced and unnatural, and goes against what the media is calling it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 16:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs) Reply

Support per all above. Tehwind (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support - When I created the article, sources were initially calling it an unrest. However with the passage of time, the balance of sources seem to be calling it a riot, which makes sense given what happened. Also, are we approaching a snow close here? Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Strongly Support - Irish police has compared the incident to the 2006 Dublin riots - per The Irish Times, reliable news sources have referred to it as "Dublin riots" including The Irish Times which is considered a newspaper of record. As for the suggestion that the stabbing should be the focus - that was not what made this make international news in the way that it did. Perhaps eventually a separate article could be written for the stabbing once there is more information about it. Lastly the article itself frames it as a riot and mainly uses that term in the lead. Operator-zeta (talk) 19:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Support - If a large mob gathering and attacking people, smashing property, looting shops and burning police cars, buses and trams over the course of a night doesn't constitute a riot, I don't know what does. It also makes for consistency with the article about the 2006 Dublin riot. Gatepainter (talk) 20:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I believe that the stabbing and the rioting should be separated into two separate articles as there will most likely be more news to cover with the stabbing and the rioting alike and as they are two different events (even though one transpired into another event) Duck Dur (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

This article is no where close to size issues to require that separation, and the events are too closely linked to split. Masem (t) 13:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Masem that the two events are intimately involved, the one providing the pretext for the other. They are parts of the same story.

If the story of the stabbing or of the riot, or both, grew into very long stories, perhaps splitting the article could be discussed in future. Talk of splitting now is premature. Spideog (talk) 14:58, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

It’s too early days for discussing splitting articles.. Edl-irishboy (talk) 15:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Can someone fix the infobox to include 1 seriously injured police officers? I keep running into errors every time I test it on preview. Borgenland (talk) 14:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Can you link to a source that I can attach with that? CeltBrowne (talk) 14:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

https://apnews.com/article/ireland-rioting-dublin-stabbing-farright-2eaabb92b4e1623615a0860911cab91b. I mentioned it at the bottom of the Unrest section. Borgenland (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

This article describes the stabber as aged 40s. More sources in this article are now referring to him in the 50s. Borgenland (talk) 14:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

It is stated on a RTÉ article that the person was in their 40s (this is the only state where I can find a age for the suspect Duck Dur (talk) 15:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The sourcing for this seems to have changed overnight, which is not uncommon when dealing with a current event. Initially the suspect was reported as being in his 50s (see sources in article history), whereas sourcing today is either omitting the age (RTE), or reporting the suspect as being in his 40s (Irish Times, BBC News, Irish Independent).

I think there's two solutions we could use here. From a quick review, more sources are currently reporting that the suspect was in his 40s than 50s or omitting. We could report that he's in his 40s, using one or more of the recent sources. Or we could omit the age, until there is consistency across sources. I'd probably err on the side of caution, and omit the age until we have consistency of reporting (WP:BLP provides many reasons to do so). Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Propose that a map of Dublin showing where the stabbing occurred and possibly major riot incidents be included. Borgenland (talk) 14:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I believe this would be a good idea for the people who don't know Ireland but you should compel multiple videos and try to get it that way Duck Dur (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

If a map is created, there are numerous locations of events that it should include. The dozens of reports I have read and watched individually describe some – but not all – locations so compiling a comprehensive list of event locations will require careful harvesting from a variety of sources, Irish sources being the most knowledgeable about the layout of the city.

Such a map should show: 1. the site of the stabbing at Coláiste Mhuire on the east side of Parnell Square East, halfway between the Garden of Remembrance and the Gate Theatre; 2. later violence at the south end of that street, 3. violence along the whole length of O'Connell Street, 4. on Westmoreland Street, 5. at Arnott's shop on Henry Street, 6. at sundry locations between Busaras and Capel Street, as well as 7. a band extending north and south of those east–west extremities. Locations other than the ones I have identified may be found in reports that I have missed: violence was widely spread between different locations.

Anyone compiling a map should gather a comprehensive – and accurate – list of locations first, because including additional locations or correcting imprecisely identified locations could be more difficult once the first version has been created. Spideog (talk) 15:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Source if anyone wants to add:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1124/1418256-rioting-dublin-city/

©Geni (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

not sure it's relevant for the article unless it ends up being used tonight or there is a larger conversation about riot suppression afterwards. Right now it seems more like news than something that will be important for anyone reading this page months or years down the line. Operator-zeta (talk) 19:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Is the Coláiste Mhuire on Parnell Square, where the stabbings occurred, still an active school, or is it a former location of the school now moved to Cabra?

Some news reports describe the stabbings as having occurred "outside Coláiste Mhuire" while others describe children lining up "outside the crèche" at that location before they were stabbed. Given how young the children were, I suspect they were attending a crèche which occupies the former site of Coláiste Mhuire.

If my guess is true, perhaps the article would be more accurate if we knew the name of the crèche so we could substitute that name for instances of "Coláiste Mhuire" in the article. Spideog (talk) 16:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I have looked at 4 Parnell Square East in Google Street View and the site is described by Google Maps – correctly or incorrectly – as "Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire".

It was not possible to read the brass nameplate beside the front door to determine if it is still called that or if there is the name of a crèche instead.

It's a puzzle because the Coláiste Mhuire article states clearly that the school "was based at Parnell Square" until 2002, when "the school relocated to a new campus in Cabra in view of the poor condition of the Parnell Square buildings." Spideog (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I think I've figured out where the confusion lies. It seems though Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire is currently split over two sites, one on Ratoath Road near Cabra, and the other at 4 Parnell Square. The school used to be based solely at 23-27 Parnell Square, until it split in the early 2000s, with the primary school (the Gaelscoil) moving to 4 Parnell Square, and the secondary school (Gaelcholáiste) moving to Cabra. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for the reply. Do you have a source or citation to confirm that part of the school remained at 4 Parnell Square East? I would update the Coláiste Mhuire article with that information if I had a reference to support it.

It seems perverse that the school was in such poor repair in 2002 that the older pupils moved to another location, leaving the small children in a building of such "poor condition". Have a close look at the dilapidated front door of the Parnell Square building two years ago. I wouldn't condemn children of tender years to inhabit such a dingy property. Spideog (talk) 18:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Secondary sources no. I can't quickly find anything in English, and my Irish isn't strong enough to conduct a search in Irish on this. Primary sources though, the 4 Parnell Square link in my reply above, takes you to an English language history of the school on the primary school's website. It might be acceptable in a limited ABOUTSELF manner to cite this.

that the older pupils moved to another location, leaving the small children in a building of such "poor condition" That's not what happened. According to the school's website, prior to the early 2000s, the school was based at a single site on 23-27 Parnell Square. In the early 2000s, the school split, with both leaving the 23-27 Parnell Square site, with the secondary school moving to Cabra, and the primary school moving down the road to 4 Parnell Square. To restate, both the primary and secondary schools moved in the early 2000s, and the school does not maintain a presence at the former site on 23-27 Parnell Square. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ah, the school split and both halves moved! How cunning of them. The crafty buggers threw their pursuers off the scent. Finally it makes sense. Thank you for the enlightenment. Spideog (talk) 18:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes! The photo you found on Commons is of the old site, at 23-27 Parnell Square (it's mislabelled on Google Maps as 19 Parnell Square North). And yeah, it's in pretty bad shape. The current site of the primary school is this gray door, listed on Google Maps as 4 Parnell Square East. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've updated the Coláiste Mhuire article to describe the splitting and relocation of the two parts of the school. Thanks. Spideog (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Why does the article name the company the driver who protected the woman and child worked for, how is it relevant to anything? --2003:C9:470F:D500:A1A2:51DA:CB49:D030 (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The name of the food delivery company is irrelevant and constitutes unwarranted publicity for the business. It contributes nothing germane to the article. I have removed it.

Indeed, even the man's occupation is unimportant to the narrative (although I left that information in the article). It is helpful to say he was a motorcyclist to explain why he had a helmet and what kind of helmet it was, to explain how it was such an effective weapon against an armed attacker. Spideog (talk) 19:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

In the main part of the article it's written that the assailant is an Algerian national. However, here it says that he's an Irish citizen, originally from Algeria, who has been living in Ireland for 20 years. I think the wording should be changed to reflect this. LynxesDesmond (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Reply