Talk:Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021
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Thanks from a Kentucky Wikipedian
Thank you all so much for putting this article together. We are in shock here in Kentucky. Kindly speedily delete this comment if inappropriate. A grateful Kentuckian. Alan Canon (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021
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Add a tornado of unknown intensity, first spotted in Gays (Moultrie Co IL) and then tracking through Mattoon, Humboldt, Fairgrange, and Oakland (all Coles Co). The tornado touched down around 9:58 PM Central and lifted around 10:20 PM Central. Several structures, including one home, were damaged or destroyed in Gays (see https://jg-tc.com/news/local/photos-storm-takes-toll-on-moultrie-county-home/collection_c5f84610-695a-5b40-907c-78daef322af0.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot); no injuries or fatalities have been reported. See NWS Lincoln IL Tweet: https://twitter.com/NWSLincolnIL/status/1469516987135000577 139.67.225.32 (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- Will check and verify when I have the time to do so in order to resolve edit request. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Done - Tornado has been added, edit request just not resolved. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Proposed merge of Mid-December 2021 North American winter storm into Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The winter weather aspects of this storm are of questionable notability. Having them in a separate article from the tornado outbreak produced by the same system creates an unnecessary content fork. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:48, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support – Yes, that article should never have been created. United States Man (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- It was created before this one... Elijahandskip (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Page history says it was created at 00:27, 12 December 2021. A draft doesn't count. United States Man (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- In my mind, a draft that has been listed to other places (besides a user/talk page) does count. Either way, I am ok merging. But please stop the aggression. Elijahandskip (talk) 02:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Page history says it was created at 00:27, 12 December 2021. A draft doesn't count. United States Man (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- It was created before this one... Elijahandskip (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Support with Condition - If we merge the article, then either a renaming has to happen to include information from Dec 9, or nothing from Dec 9 will be included. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- See my comment in the section above. I don't think that's an issue. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- The page will be merged and all content from Dec. 9 on will be included, regardless of the name of this page. United States Man (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- EXTERMELY Strong Support Yes please. And no; renaming is just going to confuse the reader since no tornadoes happened on December 9.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- STRONG support. The tornado outbreak will get the name as the primary event from 10-11, since it was by far the most prominent event. CrazyC83 (talk) 02:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Transclude tornado table to monthly list?
This thought has occurred to me with previous outbreaks, but would it be a good idea to transclude the tornado list in this article to List of United States tornadoes from October to December 2021? I know @United States Man: put a link in the list because, well, things are chaotic enough that keeping two tables updated consistently is a real headache. But I thought that we might, instead, transclude the tables from this article. It saves us the redundant task of making the same updates to two pages. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:58, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- That also prevents the lists from having different content. United States Man (talk) 03:00, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have an even better idea. Why don't we do this for ALL articles (excluding outbreak sequences). I get tired of having to update two articles and fixing refs for the same stinkin' time period.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's the idea. United States Man (talk) 03:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I transcluded them but both tables come over for each section now? United States Man (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Lemme try something. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like it worked. Only issue being the sections don't link back to this article. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Template:Excerpt is likely what you are looking for. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I tried implementing this and it failed. Turns out there were some tags on this article causing trouble for me on the other page. (However, there is another issue noted below that requires a different solution anyways.) --Super Goku V (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Template:Excerpt is likely what you are looking for. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like it worked. Only issue being the sections don't link back to this article. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's the idea. United States Man (talk) 03:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have an even better idea. Why don't we do this for ALL articles (excluding outbreak sequences). I get tired of having to update two articles and fixing refs for the same stinkin' time period.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Super Goku V and TornadoLGS: That works perfectly except that Template:Coord is blacklisted from being transcluded at Module:Excerpt/config, so now the coords won't show up. United States Man (talk) 14:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well, that is a problem, but thankfully not a big one as Template:Transcluded section also exists. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, looks like everything has already been resolved anyways. Thank you. :) --Super Goku V (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
The mayfield tornado should be a ef4 instead of a ef3
Pease take a look at the videos for damage 174.250.18.6 (talk) 03:09, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- We cannot rate tornadoes based on our own assessment as that would violate the policy of no original research. We have to wait for an NWS rating. It's early yet, so everything is preliminary anyway. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...no.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 04:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Is there another way besides the NWS? Only thing I can think of is news sources, which might not be as accurate. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- The news gets their ratings to report from the NWS. United States Man (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yup, 'cause the NWS is the ONLY one with "Official" authority to rate the strength of Tornadoes, based on the surveys done on the tornado damage (which right now are still Preliminary and not finalized yet), which now a days take into account how strong and stable the structures were built. Again. ratings are based on expert damage assessments and damage survey data, not how to looks on video.--Halls4521 (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Super Goku V: In some cases we may mention rating disputes if they are from a sufficiently reliable source (i.e. real experts and not armchair meteorologists on the internet), but even then, the rating we put on the table is the official NWS rating. It is a preliminary rating, and a special assessment is usually required for anything higher than EF3 (see page 6 of this NWS document). TornadoLGS (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Gotcha. That sounds reasonable to me. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- The news gets their ratings to report from the NWS. United States Man (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Is there another way besides the NWS? Only thing I can think of is news sources, which might not be as accurate. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...no.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 04:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Redirect
Do you think that “Quad-State Tornado” could be a redirect to the article? EmilyS1234 (talk) 14:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Isn't it kinda early for a redirect? On one hand it's good to mention it in the article, but on the one hand, its not been confirmed that its a single tornado.--Halls4521 (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- There apparently already is one: Quad State tornado. United States Man (talk) 14:55, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
How to classify Dawson Springs deaths by county?
In the table by county, it lists 11 deaths for Hopkins County, citing 11 deaths in Dawson Springs; however, the city is located in 2 counties (Hopkins and Caldwell), and to complicate the matter, this article states 4 deaths in Caldwell County and also mentions a Dawson Road. What do you guys think? Skarmory (talk • contribs) 17:21, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say 4 in Caldwell and 7 in Hopkins until additional information is provided. CrazyC83 (talk) 18:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2021
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Requesting edit for thr tornado that occurred in berckindge and ohio countries in Kentucky I forgot the other county but it happened December 10th 2021 the Nws office in Louisville upgraded the preliminary rating from Ef1 to EF2 colord from cat1 to cat2 proof is herehttps://mobile.twitter.com/NWSLouisville/status/1470092837664526343 mobile chrome is having a hard time typing tweet text Unum livonium (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Sections for notable tornadoes
Should some of the notable tornadoes (5+ deaths) have sections? 108.170.65.170 (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- When enough information is gathered to fill sections, they will be created with time. The short path length of the Edwardsville tornado is working against it; it can likely be effectively summarized in the table. United States Man (talk) 22:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Mt. Juliet Tornado
In the early hours of Dec. 11, there was a tornado in Mt. Juliet, TN that damaged several houses and took out the power for several hours into the day itself. https://www.wsmv.com/news/wilson_county/10-14-homes-damaged-by-storms-in-mount-juliet/article_68117c60-5a75-11ec-a760-7b4514fd5288.html here's a link to a news article about it. The article is unsure whether it is a tornado or not, but then a damage map is shown which pretty much shows that it was a tornado. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.215.28.38 (talk) 22:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I have added this source and another to the RefIdeas template at the top of this talk page in case more sources that can be used are found. Feel free to add any additional sources either here or in the template at the top. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:06, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I am aware of this tornado, but NWS Nashville has yet to release a survey. It will be added with time. United States Man (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Need to change November to December.
"A tornado touched down near Bowling Green and approached downtown around 1:19 a.m. CST on November 11; the EF3 tornado developed on the back edge of a supercell spun off of a line of strong to severe thunderstorms over western Tennessee late in the evening of November 10. The overnight tornado's approach was noticed during long-form severe weather coverage on ABC/Fox affiliate WBKO; the station's tower camera, which was pointed toward the western sections of Bowling Green, captured a massive power failure in that part of the city as several transmission lines were knocked offline by the tornado, before the station's studio facility (located along US 68/KY 80 and the William H. Natcher Parkway) briefly lost electricity.[69]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.7.68 (talk) 23:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- Done; thanks for pointing this out. Kleinpecan (talk) 23:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Damage photos
I'm currently uploading photos from the DAT to add to this article. The damage is from Bowling Green, KY, Pontoon Beach/Edwardsville, IL, and Defiance, MO.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Requested move 13 December 2021
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn United States Man (talk) 03:49, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021 → December 2021 North American storm complex – Since we've merged the winter storm article into this one, we should change the name of the article to the standard naming convention for similar events (See December 2013 North American storm complex, December 2015 North American storm complex, and Late December 2012 North American storm complex). JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strong oppose – This article is almost entirely about the tornado outbreak. Changing the title to something else would be misleading and give undue weight to an insignificant snowstorm. United States Man (talk) 02:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Opposed (For right now): There's no notable info for the Storm Complex as a whole outside this. Currently, the only thing of real notability is the deadly Tornado Outbreak (thus this article), and nothing else.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose The winter storm is of secondary importance to the tornado oubtreak and was only merged because that article probably should not have been created in the first place. In that regard the Tornado outbreak of April 14–16, 2011 is probably more comparable. Non-tornadic effects are pretty standard in tornado outbreak articles. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:10, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose: The tornado outbreak will be the most recognized part of the storm, and the most notable as well. No need to change the title just to be more inclusive of the background. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:14, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose - When people in the future look for this article, they will almost certainly be looking for the tornado outbreak. Changing the title will only lead people away from the content they are looking for. EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 03:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - This article is about the outbreak first and foremost basically with a small section regarding other impacts. If enough information can be compiled, then such an article can be created separately under said name that links to this one. DarkSide830 (talk) 03:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note Such article was already created (under a standard winter storm name), and was swiftly merged into this one, I don't believe anyone here would support splitting the winter storm off onto it's own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- EXTREMELY STRONG OPPOSE Really? This conversation again? How about no, no, nope, nada, and a big fat HECK NO.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note If you are going to Oppose, please do so in a more concise manner and give proper reasoning as per above instead of just "nope", also "EXTREMELY STRONG OPPOSE" is a bit unnecessary, a "strong oppose" at best world work. Thank you.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Withdrawl It seems at this point there is strong concussions against, and I do understand the reasoning given. If there is more added onto the winter storm section, then potentially we could discuss this again, but at this time it does seem like the current article name will suffice.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Jumping the gun on the death toll?
This AP article states that the death toll has been revised to 50. Not sure what to do with this, so I'm leaving it here for more experienced editors. There are still sources that say 80, so no idea what to think. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's just speculated death toll for the candle factory in Mayfield alone, not confirmed deaths.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- "Dozens of people in several Kentucky counties are still believed to have died in the storms, but Beshear, after saying Sunday morning the state’s toll could exceed 100, said that afternoon it might be as low as 50."
- Direct quote from the article, it definitely mentions state toll there. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- "Still believed to have died... Could exceed... Might be as low as 50" Literally unconfirmed and simple speculation.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- It is not speculation, however, that the death toll from the factory in Mayfield has been revised down to 8. So, the deaths toll in this article is a result of overblown estimates from the governor and news media. United States Man (talk) 14:42, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
if the "quad-state tornado" is confirmed as a single tornado should this article's name change to "Quad-State tornado outbreak" ?
title Sdgedfegw (talk) 03:28, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, as there are several other notable tornadoes than just the Quad State Family, and there was also the preceding winter storm.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No. This article is about the outbreak, not jut the one tornado/tornado family. The page to be moved would be 2021 Western Kentucky tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I believe they're saying; I think they're stating that the outbreak should be named the Quad State outbreak, not renaming the article to the Quad State Tornado. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- That makes more sense, but I think that might lead to confusion with the article for the individual tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No. Misleading as the outbreak affected more than four states, and as LGS said, the page to be moved would be 2021 Western Kentucky tornado. Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 21:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No. First, I have doubts about it being officially referred to as the "Quad–State Tornado" (whether it is one or not, and most evidence so far says its not). Secondly, the "Tri–State" Outbreak (1925), the "Toledo–Gainesville" Outbreak (1936) and the "Flint–Worcester" Outbreak sequence were named as such due to those tornadoes (for the most part) being the only notable storms in those systems. And, as mentioned above, there are several notable tornadoes in this outbreak.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Incorrect formatting-please refer to previous major outbreak articles!
What is with the huge sections of information listed by state below the tornado table?? Why can we never do this with any degree of consistency? That is NOT how it is done, and there is zero precedent for the sudden change. Please refer to the 2020 Easter tornado outbreak to see how it is supposed to be done. A "Confirmed Tornadoes" section needs to be made with a table, followed by individual writeups for the most significant tornadoes of the outbreak. The list of state by state impacts is already a disorganized mess. Consistency guys, please... TornadoInformation12 (talk) 07:05, 13 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12
- I am aware of how it is supposed to be and I’m just letting it play out. Once surveys come in and some of the extra help drops off then we can fix everything. United States Man (talk) 10:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's likely the best option until we know the breakdown of the AR-KY tornado family. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- It was just temporary. No need to freak out man.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Missouri impact subsection
The Missouri subsection is lacking much information on damage. I believe the corresponding storm was that EF 3 NW of Augusta to SE of Harvester tornado. It hasn't been expanded and there should be more information available, so please add on.--Dora the Axe-plorer (explore the morgue) 12:47, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can do a bit later. It is notably small. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Meteorological synopsis, paragraph 4 error
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- Paragraph 4 on the Meteorological synopsis states that the tornado had an "average rotational vorticity of 94mph." This needs to be changed to "the tornado had an average rotational velocity of 81.61kt for over four hours":
- Rotational vorticity is not an actual thing wrt tornadoes... and the data used is incorrect anyways.:
- From SPC meteorologist Evan Bentley: https://twitter.com/evan_bentley/status/1469873772945571843?s=21 :
2605:A601:ACEB:4700:6188:75BE:D034:93C2 (talk) 15:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Done – "rotational vorticity" has been updated to "mesocyclonic vorticity" and further updated to clarify it being the parent supercell rather than the tornado(es) themselves, though the 94 mph will stay. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
References
Add Indiana section
Is it possible to add an Indiana section now? (Although I have asked this question earlier.) Since there are 4 references, I think this may be enough for an Indiana section. Any thoughts may go below this line. Severestorm28 (talk) 21:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Most of the impacts were non-tornadic, but if we can gather enough info, I think we can add one shortly.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- It has been done, but apparently several of the sections in the states were being merged around, so it might end up cut out of the article or merged elsewhere. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Tornadic vs. non-tornadic deaths
While most of them were indeed tornadic, there are number of deaths that were actually non-tornadic so can we specify that in the opening? I specifically talking about where it says 88 people were killed by tornadoes, which is not true.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:54, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, we should specify. Do we have any numbers on non-tornadic deaths? TornadoLGS (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- @United States Man: If I'm not mistaken, I know that the death in Shelby County was non-tornadic, right?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- I was also about to ask about certain sections for individual tornadoes, but I see United States Man is already on it. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- There were two tornado warnings down there, but I've not seen Memphis say anything about surveying damage. United States Man (talk) 22:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- @United States Man: If I'm not mistaken, I know that the death in Shelby County was non-tornadic, right?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Clean up Impact section
The impact section should focus more on impacts that aren't damage summaries or track details of a particular tornado. I split most of that large section into sections for the significant tornadoes. United States Man (talk) 22:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks bro. I was literally thinking the same thing right before you split it up.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:19, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- I know you knew better but some of the fair-weather editors did not. United States Man (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oh. I understand. Thanks. We could move the things that don't involve tornadoes to the non-tornadic impacts section, while just removing the parts that do.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- I know you knew better but some of the fair-weather editors did not. United States Man (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I do not believe the EF3 tornado for that section is notable enough for a subsection. No fatalities and very few injuries. So, any chance we can discussion the notability of that subsection? Elijahandskip (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Over 100-mile path? Yes. United States Man (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Where do you see "100-mile path". The subsection says "with a path length of 22 miles (35 km)" Elijahandskip (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Let's see: (1) near EF4 damage (rating is still pending by the way, so it could be EF4), (2) tracked over 100 miles, (3) caused injuries, (4) crossed state lines, and (5) caused significant damage in SEVERAL towns. Seems notable enough to me.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- The chart says >100 miles! The part your talking about is a specific section of the path.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- To make sure this is clear, this tornado started in Newbern, Tennessee and ended in Pembroke, Kentucky. The distance between these two points is approximately 114 miles. The tornado had a rating of EF3 from Newbern to Kentucky Lake (71.6 miles in the article) and a rating of EF2 continuing from Kentucky Lake to Fort Campbell (22 miles in the article). Although unmentioned, the distance between Fort Campbell and Pembroke is 10.5 miles. That hopefully clears up some of the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- According to DAT, it is closer to 124 miles, but still... United States Man (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- That should be the correct number. I should have mentioned that the 114 miles and 10.5 miles were based off of information obtained through Google Maps, which is why those numbers lack the "in the article" part. Given that this was more about confusion over the distance and less about sourcing, I figured that an approximation from Google Maps would be sufficient, though I should have made that clearer. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:22, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- According to DAT, it is closer to 124 miles, but still... United States Man (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Where do you see "100-mile path". The subsection says "with a path length of 22 miles (35 km)" Elijahandskip (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
EF4 damage in Cayce
Aparently NWS Memphis leaked some of their internal damage viewer info in a prelim post about the Newbern tornado that clearly shows an EF4 damage indicator next to Cayce.
- https://twitter.com/NWSMemphis/status/1470539071030284294?s=20 upper left hand corner of the screen shot
- Won't actually update until they've made that public but still it's likely that will happen soon. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well...the post doesn't exist anymore so...yeah. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- They deleted that and issued a new tweet on the Dresden EF3. They don't want to release much info until a coherent path and survey has been completed (but not a thorough and complete survey, which likely will take a week or two). United States Man (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yea I saw that lol, just putting it out there that it happened so yea.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 00:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- They deleted that and issued a new tweet on the Dresden EF3. They don't want to release much info until a coherent path and survey has been completed (but not a thorough and complete survey, which likely will take a week or two). United States Man (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Image of the deleted tweet https://imgur.com/a/lYtqc05
EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 00:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Are you sure? I don't see an EF4 point on it. Of course, it doesn't matter because its not official yet, but I just wanted to point that out.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- If you zoom very closely into the top left of the image, in the group of points you can see a red cone, which means it is an EF4 point.EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think it might be a red circle, actually. They sometimes use that to mark a damage indicator that is worth noting, but can't be given an EF-rating. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It has a clear sharp top and edge, its clearly a cone. The red circle also has a black x inside it which can't be seen here. This isn't a surprise at all.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- This is dissolving into a WP:FORUM issue. United States Man (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It has a clear sharp top and edge, its clearly a cone. The red circle also has a black x inside it which can't be seen here. This isn't a surprise at all.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think it might be a red circle, actually. They sometimes use that to mark a damage indicator that is worth noting, but can't be given an EF-rating. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- If you zoom very closely into the top left of the image, in the group of points you can see a red cone, which means it is an EF4 point.EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Let's just wait untill NWS release their official results concerning ratings. Rushing "just to be the first to report it" may lead to some mistakes and bad info.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Of course, I was just making it known that it happend, hence why I didn't rush to update it to EF4, just noting it happend in case some one else does do that.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
I agree, waiting is the only way we're going to be able to make this article perfectly accurate. Mmapgamerboy (talk) 04:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Is this track now confirmed to be broken south of KY west of Union City, TN, or has that area just not been fully surveyed yet? Fiveinchheels (talk) 20:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
They've added more data/survey points, but have not connected the two long track lines and it doesn't look like they will. No long track record it appears. Fiveinchheels (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Most Expensive Outbreak in History?
Per: [1] economic damages to reach 18 billion. --Kuzwa (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Kuzwa: AccuWeather isn't a reliable source for damage estimates so I wouldn't put much weight into that value. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 06:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Wasn't sure how Wikipedia considered damage estimates. Cheers. --Kuzwa (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
KPAH Survey Information and Photos
New pictures and interactive track map:
https://www.weather.gov/pah/December-10th-11th-2021-Tornado
Updated with : "Tornado #2 Long-Track EF-3 Tornado Across NW TN into W KY" Fiveinchheels (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Point Of Order on the FAQ above
Since Winter storms are not officially named, why is one used on the second Q point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiveinchheels (talk • contribs) 01:31, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Fiveinchheels: The names are a product of The Weather Channel. They are not official or recognized by the National Weather Service. They generally see little use outside The Weather Channel. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm aware of their unofficial nature, so why is it used here? Fiveinchheels (talk) 01:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Winter Storm Atticus is a redirect to this article. While unofficial, Weather Channel names are likely search terms, so we make sure people are directed to the article of the appropriate storm. But such a search redirecting to a tornado outbreak might cause some confusion. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Now tied for most tornadoes in a December outbreak (44-1982)
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornadoes_of_1982#December_23%E2%80%9325. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 05:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Nashville ??
The track map mentioned above on the NWS Paducah (KPAH) site is showing EF0, 1 and 2 tracks in and around the Nashville city center. Fiveinchheels (talk) 12:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
It isn't mentioned anywhere in the main page that I can see. Fiveinchheels (talk) 18:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- The tornadoes are on the table. It may could have a mention somewhere other than that though. United States Man (talk) 18:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Error
My count shows 84 tornado deaths, and ~70 in Kentucky. Where did the other four deaths come in? 69.118.232.58 (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Saloma
Than NWS in Louisville has a preliminary rating of 170 mph EF4 on the tornado that was near Saloma. EF5Boi (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
3rd EF4 EF5Boi (talk) 00:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, their page lists it as a 145 mph EF3. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 00:49, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Shelby death
Are we including this in the death toll/deaths by county table or no? I have no idea what the policy is on indirect deaths in tornado articles. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:43, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indirect deaths are mentioned in the infobox as indirect e.g. "Fatalities: 70 (+1 indirect)." TornadoLGS (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2021
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i found a source saying $3 billion in insured damages can we add https://amp.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2021/12/14/645530.htm 47.19.209.230 (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 20:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- For damage it's best to wait for an official NWS estimate and not some random agency. United States Man (talk) 20:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
NWS Regional Overview With Links to Surveys from other WFOs
Added this morning: https://www.weather.gov/crh/dec112021 Fiveinchheels (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
2nd Bowling Green tornado section notability
Do we really need a section for the second Bowling Green tornado? If we didn't do sections for the Defiance, Missouri or the Russellville-Bowling Green tornadoes, why does that one need a section? It didn't really do anything notable.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:59, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- On its own, it wouldn't be, but it's notable for Bowling Green getting hit by two significant tornadoes. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think having a section for it will help people distinguish between the two. As they may think a certain place got hit by one when in fact it was the other. United States Man (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)