Hello, I would like to suggest the critic response of the Autonomous Communities to the central government. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.39.208.224|83.39.208.224]] ([[User talk:83.39.208.224#top|talk]]) 23:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Hello, I would like to suggest the critic response of the Autonomous Communities to the central government. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.39.208.224|83.39.208.224]] ([[User talk:83.39.208.224#top|talk]]) 23:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Feel free to provide [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] first. --[[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 08:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:Feel free to provide [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] first. --[[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 08:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
:::Hi, below i provided something that (surprisiling?) Wiki article missed totally. [[Special:Contributions/62.11.3.98|62.11.3.98]] ([[User talk:62.11.3.98|talk]]) 17:51, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
== Number of people hospitalized or an in an Intensive Care Unit (ICU) ==
== Number of people hospitalized or an in an Intensive Care Unit (ICU) ==
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I absolutely disagree with this edit because a graph has to show all the cases and deaths, not only the last ones. Therefore, I propose to revert that change and maintain the style and data of the graph we had before. Thanks --Mcsmp (talk) 20:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the disputed charts. They are redundant and low resolution. It is also quite impractical to keep all charts up-to-date and referenced properly. --MarioGom (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that the graphs were bad quality and should be updated (See other section below), but I strongly disagree with "referenced properly" on the graph at the top of the page. Quite the contrary, it's very difficult to see which numbers are from where. I think it's worth having the RTVE/worldometer data at the top as that is updated more frequently, but I also think it's worth listing the official numbers including some graphs. The statistics section repeated itself quite a bit, so I want to consolidate it. Kroepke (talk) 12:40, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Origin: Germany"
The top-right-corner box says "Origin: Germany". That gives the misleading impression as if the virus had been introduced to Spain from a single country, whereas the day-by-day history makes it clear that there have been several first cases in Spain independent from each other (without direct contact) and originating from various sources (Spanish people having travelled to Italy, British tourists staying in Spain etc.). I'd recommend deleting or correcting it. --2001:A61:35B5:9801:896A:B179:E35F:7C53 (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can I please ask why Mg27127 has unilaterally decided that figures should not be sourced, by keeping adding data without reporting the source from where they are extracted or keeping removing actual sources? WP:VERIFY must still apply. Thanks. Impru20talk13:02, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Worldometers is not an accurate source, I keep putting the RTVE source in and it is not being kept and is changed almost daily to Worldometers, the main page says use RTVE.Mg27127 (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Worldometers is just reporting on the data reported by RTVE, but keeps it complete by preserving data for previous days rather than merely replacing previous reports with new ones. You will notice that it keeps reporting the exact same figures than RTVE but with a slight delay. Can you explain why it is not accurate? You are not sourcing any edits and I've had to find the sources myself because the whole chart was a mess full of unsourced/invented/incomplete/wrong figures up until yesterday. Impru20talk13:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Worldometers had some glitch/problem today (March 30th)? At the bottom of the page, "Latest Updates", it is reporting 5085 new cases with source ISCIII while the figure in ISCIII at that time was 6398, which is the actual figure in report 60 of March 30th. On previous days it never under-reported figures, so this is strange. -- ChaTo (talk) 14:51, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
+5,085 is the comparison with the latest figure from the previous day at this hour. This is correct with the RTVE and the published numbers, though I don't know why it only links to the ISCIII source which basically shows the Ministry's daily report figures. For other days, Worldometer uses the RTVE source at the very least, and in a number of cases several sources; possibly they will update it later. Impru20talk15:14, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it, those graphs should come out of the same data as the statistics table, right? If so, I can take a look at that and use a nicer format for them instead of the images they are now. -- Kroepke (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you and will thank you if you correct the data. The current format of the graphics is more than ok for me, but I'm looking forward to seeing that nicer format. @Kroepke: --Mcsmp (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Once I have a bit of free time, tonight, hopefully, I will look at all the data from the official updates and repair both the table as well as look at getting the graphs back in shape. I think this section should mostly reflect the official data where available. Other sections can use more frequently updated sources, but I believe it's worth reflecting the official numbers somewhere, too. Kroepke (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have already downloaded all the "Actualizaciones" published by the Ministerio de Sanidad. Have initially updated from the 5th of March onwards. @Kroepke:Bendiwiof (talk) 12:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to fix a mistake I did with the calculation of Active Cases (I had not substracted the dead) and I have seen that @Impru20 has reverted my changes stating "Health Ministry official reports are not accurate for each day, since in most cases they relate to a specific time of the PREVIOUS day. Data reported here is also official, but updated". @Impru20, what official source more accurate and verifiable are being used then? I cannot see these numbers on the mentioned sources. The fact that they are off by one day can be fixed easily. One of the good points of these reports is that they are available to download so are easily verifiable. @Kroepke:Bendiwiof (talk) 14:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
RTVE (Spain's public broadcaster) keeps updating the numbers at every hour in this source, with data from the Health Ministry itself. The issue is that the data you added to the chart corresponds to the ministry's daily report, published only once a day, and which does not correspond to that day's total figures because it is published throughout the morning (in fact, for some days the figures correspond to the previous day, but this is not always the case, so you can't do a valid comparison between them). It is also not the only figures released by the Ministry, just the ones given at the midday press conference. Then Worldometer keeps track of the figures reported by RTVE (which comes in handily because RTVE only updates it without preserving old data). The sources are very visible in the chart so I wonder how is it that you say that you can't find them. Impru20talk14:36, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think Ministry of Health reports should be used for past days. It represents latest consolidated data for previous day at 21:00. RTVE can be used for the very latest data for present day in the lede and infobox. --MarioGom (talk) 14:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not always, some reports collected data from the same day's early morning as well. Further, initial reports from the Ministry of Health are incomplete, so you may end up not having any data for several days in February and early March. In fact, this was exactly what was done until a couple days ago: a chart made of a mixture of various and different sources, just being a bunch of WP:SYNTH. We must be consistent on the data that is given or this will be an absolute mess, and currently we can gather the data from a single source (Worldometer) collecting the data from RTVE. Impru20talk14:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First, @Impru20 sorry about the confusion with the sources and my respect for your work on Wikipedia. I saw the sources, but not where the numbers came from. It has taken me some time to see exactly what was being extracted from wordometers.info. I fully agree that the data has to be consistent, and now I understand that it is. What misdirected me was the sources stating "From 2020-03-06: Ministerio de SanidadActualización Nº 48, 2020-03-18". That source is not being used and as a consequence, I got the impression that the data was a mess. My bad. I would take out the reference to the Ministry if it is not being used. But then, I agree with @MarioGom in the fact that for historical data it would be better to use the Ministry data. Even if its not strictly given every 24 hours, it is an official source and more verifiable. HTH. @Kroepke:Bendiwiof (talk) 15:41, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But again, the Ministry data is missing for several days from 6 March, because it was not until later than it was turned into a daily report. And if we are going to resort to mixing up data from different sources to make up for the ministry's gaps, we should just use a source that keeps track of all data for consistency. Also, the data given by RTVE is not less official; as said, it is also Ministry data, the only difference being that it is simpler (i.e. not disclosed by autonomous community and such) and not contained in an official report. But one that is being updated at a constant rate. Impru20talk16:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@ChaTo, I have undone your changes on the medical cases chart. Please discuss here if you want to change the sources of the data. Also, if we want to use data from the Ministry, it is better to link to the place were the data is published instead of an intermediate github account. @Impru20:Bendiwiof (talk) 12:41, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This has been already explained previously in this discussion: the "official daily reports" are by themselves inconsistent because these do not report the full figures of the day (Catalonia and some other areas update their daily count after 21:00) and misses numbers for some days. The alternative for it was suggested to use numbers from different sources to account for the absence of data from the Ministry, a combination of data from different sources which is outrightly synthesis. Figures currently used are those reported at the end of each day, coming from reliable sources as noted in Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19/Case Count Task Force (mainly RTVE). These are perfectly consistent and comparable with each other because are each day's latest results. Cheers. Impru20talk13:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Impru20 if you are synthesizing from different sources, that synthesis should be verifiable. So, everyone should be able to check if, e.g., the number of cases for March Xth is correct or there was some mistake when transcribing it. Do you agree? If that is the case, we need somewhere a table with the synthesized data, in which each row references the appropriate sources from which a figure was synthesized. Do you agree with that? If yes, where can we find such table? -- ChaTo (talk) 13:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you also have Worldometer giving the daily numbers worldwide (with the sources from which these are extracted), and for the case of Spain it uses the data given by RTVE, Spain's official broadcaster. The currently used numbers have not been extracted from "different sources": they are all extracted from RTVE, being kept updated daily. This has been already stated in this very same discussion previously and we do not need to keep going around in circles on it, but using the Ministry's "official daily reports" and using other sources to make up for the missing data (which was what was being done earlier on) is pure synthesis, and you would agree with me that such a situation is entirely undesirable and that we can't use incomplete data. Impru20talk14:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If that is the case (RTVE as source, with updates throughout the day) then the last percentage shown in the chart is misleading. It may seem, e.g., in the morning, that the number of new cases is de-accelerating, while indeed, it is just because we are comparing different time periods (between day-1 and day-2 it is 24 hours, but between day and day-1 is less. Shouldn't we perhaps omit that last percentage, indicating that it cannot be computed until the end of the day (e.g., in a comment)? -- ChaTo (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The last percentage corresponds to the last data available. We keep updating it every time it gets updated in the source. It will be fully accurate by the end of the day, but I understand that we can't just anticipate as of yet unreleased data. I thought there was a footnote indicating this situation, but it was removed? Impru20talk14:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Region statistics update
I have updated the region summary table with latest figures from RTVE. I also removed columns for recoveries and active cases. We have no reliable and up-to-date sources for this. If we kept them, we would have incorrect/misleading figures for most regions and obsolete figures for others. It's a pity we don't have better sources, but we cannot just make things up. --MarioGom (talk) 16:01, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Map in infobox
The caption of the map in the infobox is "Map of provinces with confirmed coronavirus cases (as of 18 March)". So, is a map of provinces, but the data of the 4 provinces of Catalonia is not the data of the provinces themselves, it is the data of the whole region of Catalonia. Therefore, it has to be changed, I propose use the CCAA instead of the provinces. --Mcsmp (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Today the map has not been updated, Castilla y León, Castilla La Mancha and Comunidad Valenciana are now over 1000, Galicia and Navarra are over 500, and Cantabria is over 100. Almost a half of the map is outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.151.33.244 (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mistake in the map for the provinces of Catalonia
Today on march 19th 2020, the map of provinces of Catalonia is still clearly wrong. The four provinces are coloured as if they were more that 1000 cases on each province. This is false. The error might be due to political interests in order to hide the enormous numbers in Madrid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EduardVivesSE (talk • contribs) 10:13, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The map is wrongly colored for the provinces of Catalonia. no-one of the 4 them reach 500 cases still.
Another mistake in the total sum of the table for Madrid, that is over 3000 cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.151.33.161 (talk) 07:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First of all: YES there is an updated map with cases at the province level (https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20200319/mapa-del-coronavirus-espana/2004681.shtml). There are only two autonomous communities (Catalonia and the Balearic Islands) whose governments do NOT facilitate distribution by province. In any case, it is for this reason that the map specified that the color in the case of Catalonia indicated that it was the data at the level of the Autonomous Community and not the provinces. I believe that conspiracy theories on political ideologies should be left out on these issues, and about those who put them out... A map at the level of Autonomous Communities is scarce given the few territorial divisions that exist in Spain, unlike France or Germany, and therefore these data do not give an idea of the real scope of the pandemic, something that at the level of provinces can be seen. That is the reason why all of Catalonia appears in the same color, and not another. I have been thinking for days about how to solve it better, but since from here I am accused - falsely - of having a certain political tendency, I will leave the experts to go ahead with the map. --JulenBengoitia (talk) 16:43, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of the Balearic Islands, the autonomous community only contains one province, so we do have per-province data; It's the same as at the regional level. Pablodiazgutierrez (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It would be interesting and informative to understand why/how Spain has become 4th country in the international table for tested cases.
Is this due to population/cultural behaviour, international travel/influx or is there a climatic factor?
Noting that Madrid is has the highest number of cases but how do these numbers compare in terms of percentage of population?
If Madrid is the hotbed then like London and Paris then is population density and public transport key factors in the contagion?
Would it be useful incorporating a section specific to this perspective?
I am looking into the angle and welcome collaboration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Millsom (talk • contribs) 07:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Paul Millsom: To the best of my knowledge, there are still no reliable sources necessary to discuss that in a Wikipedia article. There are a few reasons being discussed, such as the lack of measures during +1 month of epidemic (e.g. lack of extensive case tracing in early stages, lack of restrictive measures later stages), but it's quite early to have some serious comparative study to say anything conclusive. --MarioGom (talk) 09:51, 20 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If the full picture is not available yet, there are some known facts:
for locations, 2757 out of 5690 fatalities (48%) are in Madrid region (#Statistics) and 1070 out of 5690 (19%) in Cataunya while few part of Spaniards leave in Madrid and Catalunya.
for dates, it appears the big steps where on 2020-02-29/03-01 and 2020-03-07/08 when occurred various events such as:
on 28 February, the Swiss government banned all public and private gatherings of more than 1000 people until 15 March, including cancellation of the Geneva International Motor Show
Disputed claim in introductory section: 350,000 tests?
The claim "and more than 350,000 tests for COVID-19 have been conducted" in the introductory section, backed by reference 9, is highly contested and has very low credibility:
I'm maintaining the "Statistics" section consistent with the daily consolidated data of Spain medical cases, as explained in the sources of that table and at the beginning of the "Charts" section. These are consistent: the table and the charts show the same data for each of the time series (cases, deaths, recoveries, per-community cases). This means that each number for each day has a reference to an official daily report by the Ministry of Health, which appears in the last column of the large table. I understand that it is OK that the timeline at the top of the page and text in the page can be updated throughout the day with new figures made available by RTVE and El País among others, which are available more often than daily, as requested by User:Bendiwiof and User:Impru20. I reverted edits by 2001:1c05:3208:3b00:f938:dea1:a2ac:fcde and 2001:1c05:3208:3b00:8c46:b5d2:ce6e:b409, probably the same user, who updated the last data point of one chart (new cases) without updating the charts on recoveries, deaths, per-community cases, or the table, and without explaining on the article any change on how these charts are done. -- ChaTo (talk) 14:18, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ChaTo: I think we should use RTVE/El País for the lead paragraph and the infobox, but all tables and charts should rely on the "verified" daily statistics. Otherwise maintenance would be nightmare. --MarioGom (talk) 23:13, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
MarioGom: Agree. RTVE/El País data helps keep the lead paragraph and infobox updated throughout the day. Daily data from the Ministry of Health used in the tables and charts provides maintainability, but most importantly series that are consistent with each other (e.g., the total number of cases equals the sum of cases per autonomous community) and that are verifiable as each data point in a chart and each row in a table has a permanent reference. -- ChaTo (talk) 08:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ChaTo: Agreed. Consistency between regions in time is also important. Before we used Ministry of Health reports, one of the tables had a daily update for Catalonia in the evening. That meant that the table represented data for day N at 21:00 for all Autonomous Communities, except for Catalonia which had data from day N+1. This disparity between regions can be misleading. --MarioGom (talk) 08:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Number of people hospitalized or an in an Intensive Care Unit (ICU)
Please note that the data from the Ministry of Health (e.g., Update 62 of 2020-04-01) does not say how many people are currently hospitalized, but how many people have required hospitalization. The same happens with the number of people in an Intensive Care Unit, which is the number of people who have required to be in an ICU, which are also counted in the number of hospitalized. So, for instance it would not be correct to say that there are 5,872 people in an ICU as of 2020-03-31 21:00 using official data as a source, as some of those people may have died or recovered, as the report itself notes. -- ChaTo (talk) 11:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. It's true that the timeline is proseline. However, I would suggest to first separate whatever can be separated by autonomous community into subsections as in the 2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Germany (there, the timeline is per state). That would make this timeline more useful, I think. Then, the events that don't refer to a specific autonomous community could be summarized and placed above. -- ChaTo (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am thinking in separating the timeline per autonomous community as in the German article, with one subsection per community, keeping events related to the entire country at the top. I would also add links to specific articles for the communities that already have them (Madrid, Asturias, Ceuta, Melilla, Canary Islands). Opinions? -- ChaTo (talk) 11:41, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that this would fix the problem. A lot of the "events" are things like "VIP X announced that they caught it", which would be better to handle on a dedicated timeline article then try to keep it on this page. I don't object to sourced summaries on progress in the autonomous communities, but it has to be prose rather than timeline style. buidhe20:10, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let's find a compromise? Can you suggest specifically how to improve the Timeline section without moving it to a separate article? -- ChaTo (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All I'm saying is that splitting to a separate article is the recommended action by MOS (MOS:LONGSEQ) when a list section overwhelms a prose article, while MOS:LISTBASICS notes that we "Prefer prose where a passage is understood easily as regular text." We also have to consider lasting significance and due weight when writing articles. So, the long February section (when the outbreak wasn't having much effect yet) will likely have to be trimmed, and we'll get rid of the blow-by-blow such as, "In Castile and León a new case in Burgos, a young woman, raise the total positives to 14." In 20 years, will it seem significant which day Ana Pastor was diagnosed with the illness? Such info may be appropriate for a dedicated timeline, however. That's why I recommend a split, with the remaining timeline prosified and changed to "History" or similar. buidhe00:03, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see that the article's timeline is being prosified, that's great; I would suggest section names that are not months but periods, such as "Initial cases", "First lockdown (13 Mar - 29 Mar)", "Non-essential activity shutdown (30 Mar-9 April)" or similar. I agree with you that the following would be more valuable in a separate "Timeline of cases of the 2020 coronavirus pandemic in Spain" or similar article: (1) most updates on the number of cases in Spain or in a community by a certain date, with the exception of the initial few cases, and (2) most updates indicating that a VIP has caught it. I think the rest of the events in the timeline, including the imposition of lockdowns or quarantines, announcements of relief measures, release of new studies or analyses, cancellation of privately-organized and public events, and similar should be prosified and remain in the main article for now. -- ChaTo (talk) 09:07, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Symptoms and other data about cases, hospitalized, in ICU, or dead
Currently we're including data from the daily reports from the Ministry of Health about cases (including hospitalized, ICU, dead) by age and gender, but there is more data available. There are periodic reports from Carlos III Health Institute based on an analysis of about half the cases (63K currently). They indicate which symptoms people show (Table 2: 77% fever, 76% coughing, 41% pneumonia, 36% chills, 26% sore throat, 30% diarrhoea, 10% vomiting, 6% acute respiratory distress syndrome, 9% other respiratory symptoms, 2% acute renal failure). They also indicate outcome for certain groups of people (e.g., 91% of those deceased had some pre-existing condition or a risk factor). Should we include this data somewhere? Where? -- ChaTo (talk) 14:28, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ChaTo, General info about which people have which symptoms is probably a better fit for coronavirus disease 2019, which already has some info on this. Demographics of deceased vs. recovered may be reasonable to include here because, to a certain extent, it varies by country. I believe average age of the dead is higher in Spain than China or Italy, for instance. You could add a paragraph discussing this in the statistics section. buidhe14:35, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence "A state of alarm and national lockdown was imposed on 14 March." I would suggest changing this to "A state of alarm was imposed on 14 March." I believe that all we can say definitively is that a state of alarm was imposed. National lockdown is not well defined in this article and probably most commonly is assumed to mean business shutdown and non-essential workers staying at home, which did in fact happen on March 29. Also, the news article referenced just mentions the "state of alarm," and as far as I can see, did not mention a "national lockdown," unless I'm missing something in the Spanish article. Just trying to make this article clearer. If no objections, I can make this change tomorrow.--Beezer137 (talk) 19:21, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the lockdown is when non-essential workers must stay at home (from 29 March), the 14 March can be considered a partial lockdown. -- ChaTo (talk) 08:01, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: Live update page now linked Goldsztajn (talk) 00:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Not sure. It's true that the timeline is proseline. However, I would suggest to first separate whatever can be separated by autonomous community into subsections as in the 2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Germany (there, the timeline is per state). That would make this timeline more useful, I think. Then, the events that don't refer to a specific autonomous community could be summarized and placed above. -- ChaTo (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2020 (UTC)