Talk:Autodidacticism: Difference between revisions

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Nowhere other than Wikipedia is this word a synonym for self taught. There is a drastic difference between being self taught and having an ability to educate your self to advanced levels of education that normal requires professors and teachers. The use of the word for hundreds of years has been reserved for very special people that show an unusual ability to advance their education beyond that normally attainable by a person without schooling. Recreating the english language at a third grade level of understanding is not the mission of Wikipedia. Please stop. 69.39.49.27 (talk) 01:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. First of all "autodidacticism" is not in any of the dictionaries I checked, with or without hyphen. Nor is "autodidactic" shown as a synonym. I see the first problem with the term is it assumes intention. "Didactic" is a word that describes something "intended for instruction; inclined to teach or lecture others too much; i.e. a didactic speaker; teaching or intending to teach a moral lesson." It therefore ignores those who out of necessity and inability to stay in school get a job, for example, and learn whatever skills they obtain while working to survive. The same goes for those who just want to write, play an instrument, or learn about the world, mechanics, or nature.

It also uses a pompous, 7-syllable word, instead of a simple and understandable one. A search in Google for both "autodidactism" and "self-educated" shows that over 99.5% of searchers use "self-education" (or "self-educated") instead of "autodidactism." Personally, I would not simply change the name of this article, I wouldn't even bother having "autodidactism" redirect to it as it is such an abstract seldom-used term. In any case, anyone who did a search based on that word would obviously know what it meant. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're arguing semantics. The prefix 'auto' comes from 'auto-' in Greek, which means 'self', and 'didactism' comes from the Greek word 'didaktikos' which means "apt at teaching". So autodidactism merely means to self-teach or pursue studies independent of organized curriculum for personal advancement. All the listed individuals on the page have demonstrated a form of autodidactism concerning particular areas of interest -- they had no formal instruction. They were practicing autodidacticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.184.93 (talk) 22:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Autodidactism", as a word, is only found on Wikipedia. When I typed in "Autodidact" I was very surprised at the article's name. Its rather silly for Wikipedia to make up a word. Can we move this to "Autodidact" or something? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Self study is almost always an independent individual using a text book, purchased course ware, open course ware or even Wikipedia to get an advanced education. Free open University offers and entire degree based on content from Wikipedia. This is as close to Autodidact as self study gets. self Study should have its own page.

This is most certainly a false statement "A person may become an autodidact at nearly any point in his or her life." children and infants are not autodidact. Didactic is to teach. A person must be capable and understanding of the concept and methods of some for of teaching before one can be a didactic or autodidact. This usually happens later in life with most people and never as a child.

Just because a person becomes famous for something with out a degree does not make then an autodidact. none of the people throughout history who referred to them selves as autodidacts demonstrate the attributes of the autodidact.

Geniuses, child prodigies and those who intentional taught themselves to recognized advanced levels of learning with out teachers or universities are rare and your list is far too long. A person who plays or even writes music is not an autodidact. If you do not understand what a didactic is, please do not add to this article. A person can not be an autodidact if they are not a didactic person. I recommended this article for deletion and start from scratch with someone who knows the definition of the term and respect hundreds of years of use and established meaning. 69.39.49.27 (talk) 11:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to wikiquote, at <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>, "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education" is misattributed. Barring further evidence of the quoatation's authenticity, I nominate that part of this page for deletion. Mang 23:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC) Einstein may very well have said it, but the first person to say it was Mark Twain, FYI. JJ4sad6 23:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, Mark Twain said it, I think, "I never let my education get in the way of my learning." -Rebuttal 00:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One can not literally be described as "self taught" by mostly limiting their learning to reading books (as opposed to attending conventional schools), given that books are written by others. By reading they are being TAUGHT, just indirectly through the medium of writing. --- My impression is that an autodidact is a self-taught SCHOLAR, or someone in scholarly pursuits. I do not think Uma Thurman or Phillip K Dick should be on the list. They simply left school to pursue a career. Otherwise, any in a career who dropped out or skipped college (including Peter Jennings, Bill Gates) would fall into the category. That misses the spirit of the term.

Second. Indeed! We have to add only the greatest autodidacts, e.g. Leonardo Da Vinci. Feel free to change the list in any way you feel will suit.

That sounds like a good differentiation. Though, even though PK Dick wasn't a scholar, he was a professional intellectual who apparently educated/trained himself. And Uma Thurman, if she educated/trained herself how to act, could be seen as a kind of autodidactic artist, which seems much more relevant than an 'autodidactic businessman' or 'autodidactic journalist'. We could have a main list of autodidactic scholars, and an ancillary list for autodidactic intellectuals and artists.--Nectarflowed 01:18, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about any successful person, especially if in the public eye, who happened to start but not finish college? The strict sense of autodidacticism is self-teaching. Self-directed education is a weak meaning of the word, because virtually everyone self-directs unless they are an indentured servant, or are psychologically manipulated. I attempted to soften the text somewhat in this regard. Feel free to help clarify (or refute) this distinction. --Blainster 19:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Would David Friedman be considered an autodidact? He has reportedly never taken a formal economics class (he was a Physics major), and he now teaches Economics at the University of Chicago and writes books on the subject. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:43, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's part of a larger point. Many of the people on our list probably wouldn't think of themselves using the specific term autodidact, even though their biographies clearly meet the definitions of the term.--Nectarflowed 01:18, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you check the Friedman link, you will see he has been at University of Santa Clara since 1995. As the son of Nobel economist Milton Friedman, he would hardly qualify as an autodidact, even if he never took an economics class (unless he was not raised by his father). --Blainster 18:56, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Even though the page is huge, the actual information on autodidactism seems small. The statement "Inquiry into autodidacticism has implications in learning theory and educational theory, educational research, educational philosophy and educational psychology." seems like it should lead into a very detailed discussion. This is why I had left the {{stub}}. JesseHogan 20:48, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Anyone who wants to do some research for this article (which appears to be a popular one) might start with the book The Passion To Learn: An Inquiry into Autodidactism by Joan Solomon. The product description writes: "The final chapter addresses the implications of autodidactism for educational theory, research, philosophy and psychology."--Nectarflowed 23:49, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would it not be appropriate to create an autodidactic category and use it as an alternative to the enourmous list we have going. JesseHogan 03:34, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed the list and created a category for Autodidacts. I'm hopeful that this will lead to a more thorough and accurate listing of famous autodidacts.JesseHogan 04:46, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have added your new category to the "Category" section, although it is embedded in the article's text. --Blainster 18:18, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I felt like it should be removed so I took it out. Autodidacts are people, so it seems illogical to list a method of learning (Autodidacticism) under a classification of people. The category page and this article both link to one another so there shouldn't be an issue with page discovery. JesseHogan 23:19, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about including some references for this article and sources for the quotes? I found the source of the Huston Smith quote - Can anyone help with others? --Blainster 19:41, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why is there a link to Atheist material in the links section. What does this have to do with anything? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.33.224.96 (talk) 17:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed two subsequent sentences:

Autodidacticism, it must be stressed, is a highly unusual pedagogic phenomenon whereby a subject will develop a skill without external stimulae.

I suspect this lacks meaning as long as "external stimulae" remains undefined. Motivation has its roots somewhere.

Consequently, learning physics from books borrowed from the library cannot be considered autodidactism, but rather an alternative, and often less common, means of approaching the core material.

I believe that if Joseph Campbell had been reading about physics, he would still have been an autodidact. Conf 11:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC) Sorry if this is the wrong way to do things. But I (different from the one above) think that this line, "Alan Watts is a notable autodidact who blew an Eastern philosophical breeze Westward to turn many Western minds on to the notion of Zen." is a bit out style. Does wikipedia talk of people blowing breezes? Alan watts, who ever he is, isnt Zephyrus[reply]

I noticed it was out-of-place too. I'll try to rewrite it. - Cyborg Ninja 04:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reading his wiki page, Alan Watts does not strike me as being particularly autodidactic. His expertise and contributions are in the field of religion and comparative religion, fields that he received quite substantial formal training in. He had many Buddhist teachers and influences, and followed various eastern gurus. As for Western religions, he was educated at Anglican schools and has a Master's degree in theology. The gist of it is that he does not seem to be a very good example of autodidacticism, given that most Eastern Buddhists and similar monks and gurus learn in this fashion. If he is an autodidact, then it may be likely that many other monks and students of Buddhism and Zen would make it on the list. I have removed him completely. Starseeker shkm (talk) 06:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The page says Joseph Campbell is seen as a foremost authority on methodology, shouldn't it be mythology instead? I'd guess one could argue that is work was on the methodology of mythology but still that seems pretty weird to me.

I'll change it to "autodidacticism", which is the methodology itself, however there is also methodology (methods) of autodidacticism, but that is probably not the point. Conf 10:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have recently created a userbox and catagory for automaths right here on wikipedia! If you consider yourself an automath then I encourage you to show your pride and add this userbox by adding the template {{User automath}} or, equivalently, the userbox,

Adding this userbox automatically adds you to this catagory. --Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 04:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a userbox for self-educated individuals: {{User self-educated}}.

Ironwolf (talk) 08:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Howdy, does anyone know if there are ways to earn advanced degrees through this method? For my part, I feel like I've wasted my time and money earning the BA I have. I've learned more on my own than I have going to my school. Unfortunately, if I want to get into public administration or foreign affairs, I seem to need a degree. So again, does anyone know if there are higher education programs that recognize this method? Somehow, knowing how much of a racket education really is, I doubt it. If there is, maybe we can include information about it on the article page? JJ4sad6 23:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a really good question.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 06:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The University of Openess may interest you. It's kinda a precursor to Wikiversity but with use of premises in London. 193.133.69.162 12:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you're interested in learning about business, check out The Personal MBA. It has a list of books designed to help you educate yourself about business.

Jacotot 'discovered that he could teach things he did not know (for instance, Jacotot taught Flemish students to speak French without speaking any Flemish himself).' Jacotot taught French, not knowing Flemish, but knowing French. Therefore, he taught something he DID know! It's like, I can't speak Korean, but I can get a job teaching Koreans to speak English. Does this strike anyone else as slightly odd? If I could teach these self-same Koreans (or anyone, for that matter) to speak Urdu, THAT would be amazing. FlyBang 23:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rather absurdly odd. Way back in 1965 I learned Vietnamese from an ARVN sergent who didn't speak english - in a standard military language school in Danang. I'd say it was the way a whole bunch of Marines learned the language, nothing unusual about that. Our ARVN teacher no doubt learned quite a bit of English from us too, therefor we must have been truly geniuses or ...

Point is: Jacotot was teaching something he did know very well ... so, that section has nothing to do with the subject and should be removed - or just use a better example as that one totally fails. Vsmith 03:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The passage really makes no sense as written, for the reason stated by editor FlyBang. Not only that, the practice of (for example) having a person who speaks and understands only English teach English to Koreans is probably pretty common! The "for instance" example given is not a "for instance" or "example" of teaching things that the teacher does not know. Yours, Famspear 18:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Autodidacticism" has a preposterously inflated air in modern English, when "self-education" and "self-educated" are available and say precisely the same thing. The flaws of self-education are comparable to the products of home schooling, which needs to be linked from this article. Everyone is self-educated: a university environment does not in itself apply an education to a passive recipient, as a contemporary example at the highest level so vividly demonstrates.--Wetman 14:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your comparison. While it's easier to use the term "self-educated" in conversation, "autodidact" is a noun and better-suited for literature. The differences between an autodidact and someone who attends regular schooling (or even is home-schooled) and studies on their own now and then are many. The major thing is that the latter reads something broad and general now and then, while an autodidact researches extensively on a subject. Their interests are also quite different. This may seem subjective, but I find it to be the case and I think many would agree with me. - Cyborg Ninja 04:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are a variety of differences. First, the word Autodidacticism makes no assumption of what it means to be "educated". Instead, it implies a continuing quest for knowledge that has little to do with a common notion of "being educated". Similarly, "self taught" implies teaching a vocational skill, or having been "taught" a skill that can now be applied. Both of these terms have a notion of an end in common, while autodidacticism implies a life long quest for knowledge who's goal is not to be "taught" anything. A more relevant term would be "self learned"...but that just sounds silly. For me, autodidact would roughly translate to "self learning person". While the notion of everyone being "self educated" is highly debatable, it makes no difference because it would be a distinction of degree rather than kind.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 22:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Autodidacticism is a philosophy of taking personal responsibility for one's learning throughout life. Autodidacts may use books, computers, mentors, traditional classrooms, or other pedagogical tools (and of course personal experience), and they may or may not be historically notable individuals. The key distinction is that the autodidact is aware that they are continuously educating themselves to their own ends. Homeschooling is not autodidacticism— it is traditional curricular schooling at home. Unschooling comes closer, but does not necessarily include the element of personal responsibility. Another way to think about autodidacticism is simply individualism applied to learning. — Ironwolf (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not up to Wikipedia standards. For one thing, half of the article consists of quotations from supposed-autodidacts. There are few citations. There's an entire category about a fictional book. Much of the article is poorly-written, particularly the category on famous autodidacts. I suggest to anyone reading this post: please edit this article and make it better. I'm doing what I can while trying to keep the people who added content happy. - Cyborg Ninja 14:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Most of the "Noted" section is just quotes from famous people about their disdain for formal education with no data about their supposed self-teaching (especially the Frank Zappa quote). A quarter of the kids in your average high school think education is a joke. Does that make them autodidacts? Sharpvisuals (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Particularly to the Notable autodidacts section. If I see it, I will be forced to delete it for lack of evidence. If it is a famous and well-known autodidact like Ramanujan, then I might try to add a reference myself; but otherwise, no. - Cyborg Ninja 21:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting that there are no women in this list. It could be that the term autodidact is constructed as a masculine term (since women's achievements are often in spheres that are unrecognised by society and therefore none of the contributors would have heard of them), or it could also be that our society is constructed in such a way that women are intentionally barred from self-education. Anyway, if anybody can think of good female examples, feel free to add them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.148.5.119 (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you cannot think of any, perhaps your mind is constructed in such a way that women are intentionally barred from self-education? If there are notable women (Ayn Rand may be an example), they will be added to the list, and has nothing to do with any agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.184.93 (talk) 22:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Gender bias is entirely Wikipedias. There are many more women autodidacts than men and a large number of Black autodidacts as well. The women who solved the math for Albert Einstein and actually demonstrated the E=MC2 equation was the daughter of a famous mathematician but was not permitted to attend university because of her gender. It is reported that she did get special permission to attend lectures on occasion but was required to sit in the hall and look in through the door way. As you well know. On Wikipedia, women still sit in the hall, maybe one day we will let them in. 69.39.49.27 (talk) 17:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, let's have the politically correct Wikipedia. Anyway, if you think those people should be in the article, add them yourself... --Taraborn (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The myth that Einstein's wife did his math has been thoroughly debunked. The documentary (I do not recall the name of the top of my head) that helped spread this myth is considered bad science at best, deliberate fraud at worst.

The claim that there would be more female than male autodidacts also strikes me as strange, based on my own experiences, but I grant that these cannot be considered conclusive evidence. Then again, neither can yours. 94.220.247.32 (talk) 15:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a strange place to air these politically correct concerns. Who are these autodidacts you mention? Care to share? The list is supposed to be illustrative, not representative. AleXd (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For centuries all the Black and Female leaders that demonstrated great learning had to have learned without college, your people would not let them in even as you exclude them here today. 69.39.49.27 (talk) 06:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To the IP above -- if there are examples, add them. Possible politically correct wishful thinking is not evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.184.93 (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may know, José Saramago (Nobel Prize of Literature) at the age of 13 he was forced to abandon the studies and began to work as a mechanic. Then, he continued working as a locksmith for 30 years. Failed publishing his first novel in 1947. Saramago is a self made man, which without studies won the Nobel Prize of Literature. I find this important, to quote him as an autodidact. The reference where this is explained is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/cultura_sociedad/2009/06/090622_entrevista_saramago_pea.shtml An interview Saramago granted to the BBC. It is in Spanish (Saramago is a long term resident in Spain, in Las Islas Canarias). In the interview you will learn that he was an autodidact.

He is another Nobel Prize in Literature laureate; he just didn't go to university so he might be an autodidact.Amacfiew (talk) 13:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this quote may be integrated:

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.243.191.103 (talk • contribs)

"Self-directed teaching style" and "autodidacticism" are synonyms. As such, Self-directed (teaching style) should be merged here. Neelix (talk) 14:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It should be the other way around. "Autodidacticism" is not a word. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 20:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, the article should be for Autodidact, which is a word listed in any suitably large dictionary, while Autodidacticism is found mostly on-line and is not recognized by my spell-checker (which does know Autodidact). K8 fan (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Didactism" is a philosophy of education, but "autodidactism" is the practice of self-learning.

The best synonym for "autodidact" is "self-trained" or "self-taught". I am not aware of any other synonym.

I disagree with some of the previous users who think that the difference between an autodidact and a self-trained resides in the level of learning.

Maybe the article should include a differentiation between the original meaning of the term and its modern use.

--Christophe Krief (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--60.10.66.116 (talk) 02:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC) Jean-Jacques Rousseau should be added to the list.[reply]

Self taught, historically significant, Aristotle. That he is not on this same said autodidact page as a reference, I cast serious doubt anyone here IS an autodidact. 2011-01-06 T14:41 Z-8 PST 76.169.15.189 (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since the list of autodidacts is meant to be illustrative, and not exhaustive, and since evidence of Hitler as an autodidact is of dubious quality (at best), I found it prudent to remove him from this list. I'd also just like to add that whoever decided to list him as "Chancellor of Germany", should take a good look at his view of history. Shiningheart (talk) 15:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]