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Creationism has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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See also: Creation science.
Until that article acknowledges the existence of proof, please do not claim it exists. Do not qualify scientific evidence with claims of point-of-view. Evidence is not a point-of-view.

Template:Todo priority

Revert by Ec5618

Ec5618 just reverted added text. I just wanted to state that in addition to the reason given for reverting I was about to revert the new text as commentary and not factual. - Tεx τ urε 22:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why aren't there any illustrations of people riding dinosaurs in the article? I saw them at a museum and know they are real, otherwise they would not have been there. It's obviously been overlooked. Somebody should remedy this immediately!--Blockhead 23:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Religious context

"Liberal theology considers Genesis a poetic work, that human knowledge of God expands over time and that the early biblical stories show only the most primitive understanding of what was to become known as the Christian deity. In a Christian context, comparing the God of the early Jewish tribes to the God revealed in the figure of Christ clearly depicts how much theological understanding developed in between the writing of the various books that came to be collected in the Bible." - It is refreshing to see that such schools of thought are not deterred by the many references to the God of mercy (Deuteronomy 7:9, I Chronicles 16:34,II Chronicles 6:14, Psalm 86:15, Psalms 118 and 136, Psalm 145:8, and Isaiah 55:7 for a non-exhaustive list) and the demand for the treatment of strangers equally as Israelites (Exodus 12:49, 22:21, Leviticus 19:10,33-34, 23:22, 24:22, Numbers 15:15,19, Deuteronomy 24:20,21, and I Chronicles 6:32-33) in their theory of primitive understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.32.122.241 (talk • contribs)

The paragraph seriously over-reached. I've re-written it. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 16:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How is this: 'Although the Hebrew Bible does not provide an account of "creation out of nothing"' which has its roots in Creation according to Genesis' statement: "The Hebrew text lacks the definite article, and many have suggested it should be translated as 'When God began to create the heaven and the earth.' This interpretation implies that there was unordered matter in the universe before God began to order it, and implicitly rejects the doctrine of creatio ex nihilio." do anything other than possibly imply some undifferentiated matter? Would someone explain the basis (textual) for this understanding? The text appears to be plain concerning the creation of light, how does the beginning afford a different understanding? Especially since the first verse COULD just as easily be translated 'Beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.' Dan Watts 11:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

intro explanation

I've removed the second half of the opening paragraph for discussion. I don't understand what it means by equating "literal" with "physical", who it's supposed to be describing, what the metric is for determining what is "general", what the "spiritual nature" of human beings is supposed to be as a "foundation", or what it means by "declaring other views" ignorant and materialistic. So, I'm assuming that this is a point of view.

While the belief may be interpreted "literally" (i.e. in physical terms), religious discussion is generally limited to a spiritual meaning. Hence "creationism" simply emphasizes the spiritual nature of human beings, claiming such spiritual nature to be the foundation of all nature, and declaring other views to be materialistic and ignorant of spiritual concepts.

Also, the demiurge idea really doesn't belong in the introduction, does it? Especially the intro practically equated creation from pre-existing chaos with demiurge, which strikes me as very odd. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

Whether Intelligent Design (ID) should be considered Creationism is questionable. As a theory, ID is intended to simply detect design among biological information. The philosophy behind it and the nature of the source of intelligence(s) is beyond the scope of ID. From Guillermo Gonzalez, assistant professor of astronomy, Iowa State University, Ames, "Creationists seek evidence to prove a particular interpretation of the book of Genesis in the Bible. They start with a specific set of prior religious commitments and seek evidence that conforms to those commitments. ID theorists start with the evidence of nature and remain open to possible evidence of design. This approach is no different from the approach taken by many of the founders of modern science." See these: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=526 http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2834&program=CSC&callingPage=discoMainPage http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSC&id=2824&callingPage=discoMainPage

--Swmeyer 23:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The links you provide are to the Discovery Institute, whose "Wedge Document" (a leaked internal memorandum) makes it clear that they intend their advocacy of "intelligent design" to be an entering wedge for specifically Christian theistic doctrine. (That's sometimes misquoted as "theocratic", but that's an error.) See our article Wedge strategy for discussion of this, founded on many many citations from creationists/IDists.

ID is accurately described as the second generation of "creation science", or attempts to dress creationism in scientific terminology ... whilst denying or ignoring scientifically-gathered evidence against it. --FOo 00:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Let's deconstruct it:

Design:verb

1. to sketch an outline for; plan

2. to contrive

3. to plan to do; intend

4. to make original plans

Design:noun

1. a plan; scheme

2. purpose; aim

3. a working plan

4. pattern

5. arrangement of parts, form, color, etc

6. artistic invention

Notice something about all of these definitions? All of the verbs are active, involving someone carrying something out. All but one of the nouns assume purpose as well, someone to plan, scheme, aim, arrange or invent. Definitionally speaking, the word "design" implies a "designer". Design as used in "intelligent design" is a euphemism for creationism. You have to hand it to the creationists... they've evolved.

Foo's right, the Discovery Institute claims it isn't creationism as part of their Wedge strategy. FeloniousMonk 00:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, I found no mention of claims of not being creationism in the Wedge strategy document linked.

First, the wedge strategy has been made into a conspiracy when it is clearly not.

Second, the methods used to detect design in fraud and in SETI are those employed in ID, specifically applied to biology. There is science behind it, and it is being ignored and described just as you both do. Here's a description of the method for detection: specification.

I could go into more, but check these out first. --Swmeyer 01:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm already very familiar with the DI's response to the Wedge document. I consider Phillip E. Johnson statements on the Wedge made extemporaneously to carry significantly more credibility than a policy statement about a document that calls for dissembling and obfuscation as a matter of policy.

"So the question is: "How to win?" That’s when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing" —the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." [1]
"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." [2]
"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. Its about religion and philosophy." [3]
"The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'" [4]

The cats already out of the bag on this, it's too late to try to deny the obvious. FeloniousMonk 02:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, if you are familiar and willing to hear them, then I'm surprised you did not consider these points as legitimate. I hope you know I'm not trying to deny anything. I agree that the wedge document exists, that Johnson is the self-proclaimed strategist behind it, and that there is a strategy to attempt a reverse of the naturalistic/materialistic assumptions existent in modern science/modernity. What I don't see is the conclusions that (1) anything they say to the contrary should be rejected on face and (2) the merits of their research/arguments should not be considered. I will post a rebuttal of your interpretation of the wedge strategy over there. Here I will address the sources you site.

Your first citation comes from the Touchstone interview. If you look at the context, this is right after he said he started to think of this like a political campaign or litigation because people would not listen to the evidences. Of course, this is a characterization. When he says "How to win" he is saying this as if he was in the characterization. Nevertheless, I admit there is strategy involved here, what he calls the "wedge strategy." If you look at the components, they are (1) stick to the basics--that no mechanism exists in Darwin's theory that could result in the buildup of information, (2) do not go into Genesis so as to avoid the Bible-science conflicts, and (3) to avoid discussions of theology that would otherwise not allow for entry into the secular community. If you look at these three items, with a great deal of suspicion it is possible to see this as a conspiracy for religion to undermine science. I offer you an alternative--it is good strategy that is intended to put to the forefront what he saw as worthy of consideration without getting caught up in less significant things.

Your second citation comes from an online article that sites Johnson from a unnamed radio show--not a very good source. It's secondary and without mention of the context of this statement.

Your third source is a quote from Johnson printed in World Magazine in 1996. In context of what Johnson has said elsewhere, it is clear he is saying the same thing--philosophical naturalism is what was always at issue. In fact, I heard him say this exact thing in 2000 elsewhere. Around minute 21, he lays out the skeptical case as an extrapolation from minor changes discovered in evidence to assert that everything developed thusly. At 23:21 of the MP3, he says, "There's been a tremendous amount of debate about all of those propositions in the skeptical case (which he just laid out). Most of that debate has centered upon the philosophical issues rather than on the accuracy of any particular piece of scientific information." He continues on to explain why he thinks so--a precommitment to naturalism that cannot handle the data. Thus, he is properly (in his view) funnelling the debate down to issues that are not about science. (Note he sees a precommitment to philosophical naturalism like a religion--you can see an example in his mention of Dobzhansky on page 34 of your fourth source).

Within your fourth source I do not find the quote you mention. I did a word search for objective (8 hits), convince (14), inherently atheistic (0), debate (15), shifting the debate (0), Jesus (5--all by Michael Ruse), Bible (7--5 by Ruse, 1 by Johnson that was irrelevant). In summary, no place in this source does he say this.

In summary, your sources show that Johnson understands the debateand his strategy seems solid.

Swmeyer 05:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. There really isn't any doubt that "Intelligent Design" is just another way to spell "Divine Intervention", and should be treated as such in this and other articles. Its proponents' words speak for themselves.

Dembski's work isn't science; it's a poor & fraudulent imitation of philosophy of science that seems to fall apart as soon as anyone asks him to define his terms. See these refutations by actual nonfraudulent scientists and philosophers of science: [5] [6] --FOo 02:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Subheader

I have to say that I believe ID is inescapably connected to religious explanations of origins for several reasons.

First, the basis of ID, that because certain characteristics are too complex to have evolved without direction, i.e. natural selection, there must have been an intelligent agent responsible, relies the assumption that there can only two possible explanations for the origin of these biological mechanisms: either undirected natural forces or intelligent intervention, which is in itself a logically invalid explanation because it precludes other explanations.
Second, that an intelligent intervention is assumed as a possibility is not scientific, for it can not be empirically proven. For example, why is the possibility of the universe itself being naturally "intelligent" in a way so as to manipulate the creation of such characteristics implicitly deemed impossible? Further, why is it also implicitly deemed impossible that primitive life could not have acted collaboratively to evolve these mechanisms? I say that these possibilites are implicitly precluded because my first point about ID, that it is assumed there are only two possible explanations, implies that no other explanations are even possible, and that by process of elimination, intelligent intervention is the only other possibility.
Third, one cannot use a lack of explanation for certain phenomenon as evidence for a theory. Ignorance does not translate into knowledge. Thus, a lack of evidence is used as evidence to prove the theory. This logic risks becoming a fallacy because it is dangerously close to, if not, the fallacy of insufficient sample and the fallacy of circular reasoning.
Fourth, 'William Dembski, one of ID's leading proponents, has stated that the fundamental claim of ID is that "there are natural systems that cannot be adequately explained in terms of undirected natural forces and that exhibit features which in any other circumstance we would attribute to intelligence."' His statement implies that intelligence itself could not have arisen naturally, using the idea that intelligence could not have arisen naturally and using it to prove that natural "intelligence" could not have caused these characteristics, because it cannot arise naturally, etc. I see such a statement to fall into the category of circular reasoning. While William Dembski may perhaps not represent the entirety of proponents to ID, being establisher of the Michael Polanyi Center at Baylor University and a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, it is reasonable to accept Dembski as an authority in ID.
Fifth, because ID does not propose any hypotheses, is not verifiable or falsifiable, lacks empirical evidence, does not apply a heuristic, etc., it is therefore pseudoscience and thus not valid as actual science and not valid as material to be taught in a science classroom.

In conclusion, I think that ID is a pseudoscientific tool to justify creationism as valid among scientists. Its connection to creationism is undeniable, as it falls under the condition of being claimed a conspiracy to suppress a theory (evolution through natural selection) due to ulterior motives (promoting religion in general, creationism especially). However, if we perceive ID as valid, then also must we accept FSMism as equally valid. As such, it would be wrong in the principles of education to teach ID and wrong in the principles of science to accept it as a valid, scientific theory.

I look forward to your thoughts of support or rebuttal.

--ZendarPC 05:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ZendarPC, I appreciated the tone of your critique. However, I think there are solid reasons to think otherwise.

On your first point on the assumption that there can only two possible explanations for the origin of these biological mechanisms, Darwinian evolutionary theory (DET) puts forth randomness as the explanatory mechanism without any possibility of design. Many ID proponents actually hold to various perspectives that include randomness as well as design. They are not holding these views as mutually exclusive in all cases. However, what is an either-or is (1) either randomness accounts for what appears to be designed (admittedly so by Dawkins) or (2) there is something other than randomness (antonym of random is with purpose) that is necessary to account for what appears to be designed. In that sense, it is an either-or. But in the bigger picture, the interaction of randomness and design is a perfectly viable option. For example, forensic science, history, and archaeology all sometimes theorize about agency to account for particular data.
On your second point, design is detected through Dembski's explanatory filter. It is scientific in that it puts forth rigorous methods to detect complex specified information and, using statistical methods, determine that it is more reasonable to infer design than attribute the existence of that information to natural selection acting on random mutations. For more info, see this and this and this and this.
On your third point, ID does not claim to use DET's lack of explanation for certain phenomenon as evidence for ID. Rather, many ID proponents see DET as lacking, which requires another theory to make sense of the phenomenon. This requires rigorous research to see if alternative theories offered can make sense of the data better. There are methods, as I pointed you to above, that actually are in support of detecting design.
On your fourth point, it is reasonable to accept Dembski as one authority on ID. However, I'm not sure I see the circular reasoning in what he was saying. I interpret your quote to say that there are phenomena in natural data that we would call intelligence in any other system and that it cannot arise from random mutations and natural selection. Can you elaborate on your point?
On your fifth point, while I do not agree with all your claims, I am undecided on the issue of whether ID should be included in classrooms. However, what I am sure of is that if ID should not be included because it is not actual science, then naturalistic interpretations of scientific data that underlies DET as taught in classrooms should not be taught, either.

Please get back to me on your fourth point or any pushbacks you may have.

--Swmeyer 21:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Swmeyer. On your rebuttal on ZendarPC's first point:

There are not just two concepts. ID's focus on 'irreducible complexity' suggests it does accept that biology exists, as a field of study, and is not merely an elaborate ploy to keep us for seeing the truth. In another concept we are living in the Matrix. All you see is computer generated.

On your rebuttal on the second point:

When I use a lowpass filter on my holiday snapshots I am using a scientifically devised tool. I am not engaging in science. That Dembski (and others) use scientific tools to do their 'studies' doesn't mean they are engaging in science. Assuming a supernatural explanation explains everything, and therefor explains nothing. It just creates logical paradoxes (who or what designed the designer?, for one).

On your rebuttal of the third point:

Most arguments I have heard ID advocated make are along these lines: "Evolutionary theory is just a theory, and its lacking. Oh, and which do you find more realistic; that the world came about by chance, or that it was created by the supernatural and allpowerful supernatural entity you already believe in?" In other words, "evolution is incomplete, so there's no shame in denouncing it. Believe in us."

On your question regarding point four:

1. This (item) shows signs of intelligent design (it is irreducibly complex, meaning no-one can imagine it coming about by chance).

2. It must have been designed by an intelligence.

3. That intelligence is therefor irreducibly complex.

4. Return to step 1.

On your comment regarding the fifth point:

Science is naturalistic. There was time when the church encouraged scientists to use only naturalism, as science was supposed to compliment religion, not supplant nor blindly follow it (which is, apart from being an interesting bit of trivia, neither here nor there). To science the supernatural does not exist. And be thankful for that. Because science would not accept the supernatural explanation that disease is caused by demons, research into diseases has yielded powerful antibiotics.

Evolution is naturalistic, and falsifiable (though it hasn't been). And no matter how hard people try (many people have tried to uproot evolution) they can never find a single fossil in the wrong layer of rock. Imagine, a single fossil of a newborn human baby or a schnauzer in a layer of rock we've always assumed to be from a time in which dinosaurs ruled the world. Such a find should have been found, statistically, if the Earth is young. Unless we're being purposely deceived. -- Ec5618 23:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ec5618, I'm not going to do any more pushbacks because my original point is that ID is not creationism. There are a number of points that are beyond my expertise to make, but I know they are to be made. I'd suggest giving the guys at Discovery a chance. Hear their explanations and arguments. They are not out to enforce their religion on anyone. It's not a smoke screen. They really think they are onto something. (unsig. Swmeyer)

I am slightly offended. You asked for a response from ZendarPC, you got one from me, but you will not respond to me.

I am also noting a pattern here, in which certain editors come here, make grand claims about evolution's shortcomings, or about a great misunderstanding of the position of ID proponents that permeates the article, and then, when asked to back up their claims, link to dubious websites (which we have all read to some extent), copy-paste quote mines, or claim they are not experts, and shouldn't have to answer these questions (rather, shifting the burden; other editors should do some common sense research, and figure it out).

I am not saying you fit the profile completely, mind you. But people, do we have to go through the song and dance with every new editor? -- Ec5618 09:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(See Talk:Intelligent design movement for a similar discussion between Swmeyer and FeloniousMonk)

Swmeyer's NPOV template and NPOV objection is baseless. Advocates of intelligent design argue that their ideas are not necessarily religious or creationism, yet in their statements to their constituency they don't deny the obvious. Is intelligent design fundamentally creationism in a new suit? Read its leading proponents claims:

"... intelligent design should be understood as the evidence that God has placed in nature to show that the physical world is the product of intelligence and not simply the result of mindless material forces. This evidence is available to all apart from the special revelation of God in salvation history as recounted in Scripture. ... To be sure, creationists who support intelligent design think it does not go far enough in elucidating the Christian understanding of creation. And they are right! ... Even so, there is an immediate payoff to intelligent design: it destroys the atheistic legacy of Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design makes it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. This gives intelligent design incredible traction as a tool for apologetics, opening up the God-question to individuals who think that science has buried God" -- William A. Dembski [7]
"And another thing I think we need to be aware of is that not every instance of design we see in nature needs to be directly attributed to God. Certainly as Christians we believe there is an angelic hierarchy - it's not just that there's this physical material world and there's God. There can be various hierarchies of intelligent beings operating, God can work through what can be called derived intelligences - processes which carry out the Divine will, but maybe not perfectly because of the fall." - William A. Dembski. Address to Fellowship Baptist Church, Waco, Texas, March 7, 2004
"My colleagues and I speak of 'theistic realism'-- or sometimes, 'mere creation' -- as the defining concept of our [the ID] movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology." -- Phillip E. Johnson. Starting a Conversation about Evolution

If the only NPOV objection is that ID is not a form of creationism, then I'm taking the template down. His objections have been thoroughly rebutted and largely now dismissed at the ID related articles, and his private campaign to redefine ID and mitigate any criticism of it is apparent, being watched, and going to stop. FeloniousMonk 23:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doctrine of Creation

This page has little to do with the doctrine of creation, which is concerned with much much more than origins. The Doctrine of Creation should NOT redirect here. These topics are related but not identical. Kiwirad

Recently removed from this article: Creation Dates

Different historical cultures and religions believed that the earth was created on different dates. Many historical calendars were based on these dates.

Jewish - 25 September or March 29 3760 BCE
Christian - Sept/Oct 4004 BCE
Maya - August 11 or August 13, 3114 BCE
Byzantine Empire - September 1, 5509 BCE

Could we move this list somewehere else? Origin beliefs perhaps? It seems a waste to just delete it. One question though: on what are these dates based? Are they clear from scripture, or have them been deduced by scolars? -- Ec5618 14:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is somewhere else: Dating creation. Joshuaschroeder 14:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Geocentrism

...and a few even support such ideas as geocentrism.

I am not familiar with any Creationists who are believers of geocentrism. I thought we all knew by now that the Earth revolves around the sun, etc. This almost appears to be condescending to Creationists in general. Can we just omit the statement? Salva 22:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd change it to 'a very few'. It's hard not to be condescending to creationists. Dante 02:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, many of the major movers and shakers in the creationist movement from the 1970s and 80s were also geocentrists. See the article on modern geocentrism. Joshuaschroeder 22:07, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Checked that article - no mention of any creationists names there. No mention of the 1970s and 80s. Does anyone have real evidence? 219.89.106.141 01:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(from the Talk:Modern geocetnrism archives):

Here are the cited modern geocentrists and cites that show they are creationists:

Dr G D Bouw "In short: evolution is dangerous to your health." [8]
Marshall and Sandra Hall -- authors of the widely distributed paperback, The Truth: God or Evolution?, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1975.
Malcolm Bowden -- author of The Rise of the Evolution Fraud [9]
James Hanson -- quote: "Geocentricity vs. Acentricity: that's the argument. Acentricity meaning there is no center whatsoever... To me, this is a hellish nightmare. This is worse than evolution, as far as I'm concerned."
Paul Ellwanger -- author of the Lousiana and Arkansas creationists laws
R G Elmendorf -- R. G. Elmendorf has a standing offer of $5000 to anyone who can prove to him that evolution is possible. Since Elmendorf is also a geocentrist, he offers $1000 to anyone who can prove that the earth moves.
Paula Haigh -- [10] "We witness the immense benefits that flow from this loving submission of reason to Faith in the work of the Creationists today and in the flowering of theology during the Middle Ages. Contrariwise, we also see only too clearly today that the most pernicious and degrading errors dominate men as they refuse to submit their reason to God's Word."
Robert Sungenis -- "As it stands, wherever Scripture addresses the topic of origins, it never teaches that the universe came about by an evolutionary process (e.g., Genesis 1-2; Job 38-42; Heb 11:1-3; Psalm 104, et al)." [11]

Joshuaschroeder 02:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying, Josh. I am almost certain that this geocentrist tarnish on creationism has to be of a decreasing minority, if it has any sustenance whatsoever. It wouldn't surprise me if a few of those wackos from the evangelist side of creationism had made such claims. Salva 02:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That you are "almost certain" is one thing, but there has yet to be provided an actual citation that geocentricity is a decreasing minority. Those who keep trying to reposition the point by claiming that it's an "extreme minority" or a "very small minority" are doing so without providing any evidence whatsoever that such is the case. The current wording will stand until an editor is able to find a citation. Joshuaschroeder 15:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Geocentrism has strong biblical support, dozens of verses. In my mind, what killed geocentrism among the general public is not the scientific evidence but the news media (if evidence could change people's minds then we wouldn't be having these creationism debates). Many of our news shows on TV start with a globe (often spinning). So almost anybody that grows up with a TV is going to think that the earth is round and spins. That seems to count for much more than any scientific evidence. MvH Jan 20, 2006.

Removed from article

Sorry, I forgot to log in when making the edit.

I removed: Because it was horribly out of context:

"To distinguish the belief that individual "kinds" of higher organisms were created by divine intervention in the natural order, from the belief that the Universe (and its contents) was created by God, the former is sometimes referred to as special creation."

Because I was unable to find the work by this man 'in the article section below':

"Also, when one looks at the early Church the majority view was the creationist view as shown by a work by Robert I. Bradshaw given in the article section below." -- Ec5618 16:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal for ID sim/diff/confl section

The theory of Intelligent Design, in contrast to modern-day creationism, is essentially an agnostic movement. Instead of adopting a personal (often literal) interpretation of the origin of life based on one's religious text, Intelligent Designers view themselves as having approached the conclusion that life was created through individual lines of inquiry in genetics, mathematics, biochemistry, and other areas of science. One common misconception about Intelligent Design is its supposed purpose of relegitamizing creationism by means of masquerading as a contender with mainstream Darwinism. This is untrue, since the basic idea that berthed the title of Intelligent Design, now recognised as irreducible complexity, precedes the actual movement by hundreds of years, dating all the way back to similar arguments made by the Greek philosophers Plato and Socrates.

One characteristic that both Creationism and Intelligent Design share is the general idea that the Earth was created by a designer. Creationists see this designer in their own adopted perspective according to their religious beliefs, whereas Intelligent Designers retain a more open-ended and scientifically-oriented philosophy that has drawn attention from agnostics, theists, and in some cases, deists.

I will return intermittenly to add on if I have any new ideas for the current thesis. I would sincerely appreciate anyone's opinions on this proposal! Salva 16:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Your first paragraph is terrible:

Intelligent Design is not a theory.
"essentially an agnostic movement" is not true. See Intelligent Design movement.
"life was created" is a claim that is independent of "life was designed". Life could be created without being designed by an intelligence, for example.
Why is it a misconception/untrue to claim ID has the "supposed purpose of relegitamizing creationism"?
There is an improper conflation of atomism and IC. Plato and Socrates never made any statements about IC.
The claim that the "similar arguments" can imply intelligent design is implicit to the last sentence of the paragraph, and it is not only arguable but the general consensus of philosophers today is that it isn't true.

--Joshuaschroeder 17:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that the "similar arguments" can imply intelligent design is implicit to the last sentence of the paragraph, and it is not only arguable but the general consensus of philosophers today is that it isn't true.

Would you be so kind as to cite a reference or two that supports "the general consensus of philosophers" regarding intelligent design? Salva 20:39, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A citation: [12]

Perhaps I misunderstood the general consensus of philosophers today is that it isn't true. Are you saying that the general consensus of philosophers today is that ID isn't true??? Because the above link lead me to a website that was founded by only two persons (philosophers?) - that was my interpretation. Could we please clarify this? Salva 03:58, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying that the general consensus is that ID did not spring out of the minds of Plato and Aristotle, as it were. What the majority of philosophers do or do not believe is not part of the proposal being evaluated. Joshuaschroeder 21:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You will note that while the philosophical implications of Plato and Socrates are written in that clearinghouse, there is no indication that there is any connection to ID. Claiming moreover that the website is limited to the "founders" (who are the editors only, not the authors) is laughable. If this were the case then any person who wrote a review article would be effectively only expressing a limited opinion. In short, it's inappropriate for you to question the validity of the source based on the number of authors. Joshuaschroeder 05:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I wasn't reading you correctly - two philosophers (the two listed on the main page) does not comprise the general consensus of philosophers today. I was asking for a citation that reflected your comment that all philosophers today don't think the idea of Intelligent Design is true. That's a false assumption. In fact, I would argue that most modern-day philosophers are certainly not Neo-Darwinian atheists that succumb to the doctrine of a universe created by random chaos. Vatican City is full of Catholic philosophers. You don't have to be an atheist to be a philosopher.

I was asking for a citation that reflected your comment that all philosophers today don't think the idea of Intelligent Design is true. That's a false assumption. -- not only did I not write this claim, this claim isn't even an assumption, rather it is a superlative generalization.

Plato and Socrates both believed that life and the universe were too complex to have been devoid of some form of intelligence.

Neither Plato nor Socrates defined said intelligence nor did their teleology approximate anything more than deterministic Deism. Certainly they weren't advocating the same kind of "best of all possible worlds" that the optimists posited in Enlightenment. So what is your point? Joshuaschroeder 21:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is close to the same argument that Intelligent Designers make today. Are you saying that this is incorrect? Salva 21:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the criticism section of the article. Joshuaschroeder 21:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

question about educational reform

Does anyone know why creationists have advocated changes in the teaching of biology in the United States, but have not advocated changes in the teaching of physics? (If creationists have actually advocated changesin the teaching of physics, this has not received much publicity which raises two other questions (1) do creationists dedicate less' time to changing physics education? If so, why? Or, if they dedicate the same amount of energy, why has the press not picked up on it)? I am curious, but since we recognize the politicsl dimension of ecreationism (i.e. that it is part of a political struggle), it seems to me that some article should cover this. If not this article, which one? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

They don't focus on implementing changes in physics as much because it isn't as vital for their political agenda as biology is. Origins is a more popular subject for discussion in biology classes, so that's what they allocate their energy and resources towards. I could go into great detail with this...yes...excellent idea for an article. Standing by. Salva 00:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Verification

Can someone help me out verify this? Is there a denotative expression about the following? "the Bible teaches that only Life begets life and that death is a result of sin"

"Only life begets life" - Louis Pasteur - http://www.grisda.org/origins/12005.htm

Death & Sin - see http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20010713_49.asp RossNixon 00:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Citations for ID quotes

Would the person who transcribed the quotes into the ID section ("our strategy has been to change the subject a bit..." and "this (the ID movement) isn't really, and never has been a debate about science..."), or someone else who knows whence the quotes came, be willing to include citations in the article? --Jay (Histrion) 18:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Creationism in Pop Culture

Ec5618 seems to be taking credit for my work. I removed creationism in pop culture, not him.

Which is why I said, in my edit summary: "I left out creationism in popculture. It serves no purpose, and is not even amusing" as opposed to: "I removed creationism in popculture. It serves no purpose, and is not even amusing". Never mind though. Take some credit. -- Ec5618 07:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I added it back in; references to the topic should belong in the article. On the other hand, you're right to question the validity of the references, which is what I tried to do with my last edit (though I later reverted it because I hadn't reviewed some of the references mentioned close enough). Basically however, I think the section should mention when creationism is discussed or alluded to in pop culture, e.g. Inherit the Wind or on The Simpsons et al. --mwazzap 06:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed changes/addition to "Critique of Creationism" section

A summary of how we can evaluate creation and other areas of science (like evolution), neither of which can be directly observed, but both sides constantly demand that the other provide "proof". Summary below explains:

Criticism/Evaluation of creationism

Scientific evidence for creation

There is no way to scientifically prove that creation did or did not happen, the event of creation is completely outside our ability to observe or measure from where we stand today. However, studies can be made of the effects of creation, and of the evidence pointing to a young earth (in the thousands of years old instead of in the billions). A number of observances that we see today point towards a young earth and young universe. Many of these are pointed out in Dr. Walt Brown's book In the Beginning - Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood (Available in both hardcover and freely available online at the link at the end of this page)

One point Dr. Brown points out the existence of over 200 Short Period Comets in our solar system. A short period comet is a comet that orbits the sun in less than 200 years, and has a life expectancy of around 10,000 years (30,000 years at the absolute maximum). Evolutionary (old earth) scientists cannot adequately explain why there are over 200 short period comets in existence at one time, because the chances of any non-short-period comet (intermediate, long, or hyperbolic comets) becoming a short-period comet are slim to none (not to mention no hyperbolic comet has ever been observed *entering* our solar system, but many comets have been observed becoming hyperbolic comets (hyperbolic comets are on a path outside our solar system, never to return unless another object interacts with it and somehow makes it return)). Most often, a comet that comes close to a planet (or the sun) is pulled apart and destroyed, or its path is adjusted and it becomes a hyperbolic comet, leaving our solar system "forever".

Based on these facts, either there such was a recent, massive influx of comets into our solar system (probably on the order of hundreds of thousands) that enough were captured by our solar system and became short-period comets, OR these comets came from within our solar system during a recent event. Dr. Brown's theory on the Genesis Flood and Creation both explain in detail why these comets exist, and in addition explain a number of other "perplexing" questions related to our universe and the earth.

Problems with this section:

In the following points, I've accepted the claims you make without question. When you say, chances of an event are slim to none, I've accepted that, for the purposes of this post. Know however that you are probably mistaken, and that slim chance of an occurence does not preclude an occurence.

There is no way to scientifically prove anything. Not just creation.
"the event of creation is completely outside our ability to observe or measure from where we stand today." Were we ever in a position to observe creation? Will we ever be? Past events can never be observed directly, why are you making this rather obvious point. Is anyone disputing this? Bensaccount was unable to grasp this basic fact either.
Studies of the effects of creation? Given that creation is speculation at best, positing that its effects can be studied in POV.
"A number of observances that we see today point towards a young earth and young universe." Obvious POV.
"Many of these are pointed out in Dr. Walt Brown's book .." We don't plug books, nor do we recommend 'further reading' in the body of the article. Furthermore, this book is hardly the ultimate book on creationism. The man is a mechanical engineer. Not a biologist, nor a astronomer.
"One point" That's nice, but not only do you fail to mention the obvious scientific criticism of this 'one point', you are singling out a single argument made by Walt Brown. Since I've never heard this argument before, I don't believe it to be representative of creationist teaching.
This 'one point' is based on a very simplified view of cosmology, and makes assertions that are not backed up by references. "Most often, a comet that comes close to a planet (or the sun) is pulled apart and destroyed, or its path is adjusted and it becomes a hyperbolic comet, leaving our solar system "forever"." How do you know this?
"Evolutionary (old earth) scientists cannot adequately explain" POV.
"slim to none" So its impossible?
"Based on these facts" Facts you say. Back them up. Oh, realise that you can't actually observe the moment these the comets you speak of would have reached our solar system.
"OR" We don't make our point by rasing our voices.
"perplexing" Argument of incredulity is hardly conclusive evidence.

-- Ec5618 16:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Barwick 03:48, 6 November 2005 (UTC) The effects of creation can be studied, if someone says "this happened on October 28th", then we can go back and study what we see today (November 5th), and see if it matches up with that person's story. For example, if Joe says "I saw that house burn to the ground on October 28th" and we walk by that house and it's still standing, with zero ash or charred marks anywhere on any of the surrounding trees, etc., then we can be pretty sure that his story is false. Similarly, someone can say "In 1999 there was a huge forest fire on my property", we can look around at the property, see certain characteristics of the plants, etc, and put a somewhat accurate date on the forest fire as being 6 years ago.[reply]

With regard to creation, if the earth was created recently (within the past 10,000 years or less let's say), then there are certain characteristics that we should see, and if we see enough of them, then we can be more sure that the event of creation actually took place as stated. If we see enough that points to an older earth then that throws doubt onto the record we have of the event of creation (and fossils, layered strata, and a myriad of other points don't point to an old earth, Dr. Walt Brown explains exactly how he's pretty dang sure that they formed in his book).

A number of observances point towards a young earth is NOT in any way POV, it is scientifically studied fact. Evolutionary scientists have tried countless times and can't fudge the numbers enough to account for the number of short-period comets in existence. The likelihood of a comet entering the solar system and becoming a short period comet is approximately one in a million.

How do I know this, you ask? It's well referenced in Dr. Walt Brown's book, but I'll include them here for you:

“What is the chance that Jupiter could catch them [comets falling from outside the solar system] by its gravity and tame them into short-period, prograde orbits? He [H. A. Newton] found that the chance is very small. Only about one in a million would have its period reduced to less than Jupiter’s period of 11.86 years.” Fred L. Whipple, The Mystery of Comets (Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1985), p. 75.

“Using current standard models for the formation of comets, a significant number of [hyperbolic] comets should have been observed. This lack of detections of extrasolar comets is becoming an embarrassment to the theories of solar system and cometary formation and may drive the parameters of these models.” Thomas A. McGlynn and Robert D. Chapman, “On the Nondetection of Extrasolar Comets,” Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 346, 15 November 1989, p. L105.

“No comet has ever been observed on a trajectory originating outside the gravitational influence of the Sun. And yet, sooner or later, such comets should be seen.” Sagan and Druyan, p. 350.

It is a scientific fact that the number of short-period comets cannot be explained by the old-earth crowd, but can easily be explained by creation scientists, whom state that the earth is the source of these comets. Dr. Brown had made predictions about the makeup of a comet well before they sent Deep Impact, and he was spot-on. Findings in Deep Impact lined up exactly with Dr. Brown's theory for the formation of comets.

Regarding Dr. Brown, Now you appeal to non-authority to claim he doesn't know what he is talking about, as if having a PhD in Mechanical Engineering isn't something already (let's assume it's not), you honestly believe that the lack of a PhD in some field related to geophysics, astronomy, history, archaeology, etc., makes someone NOT qualified to study the field? Need I remind you that most of the wealthiest and most successful people on the planet dropped out of college to pursue their area of interest? It doesn't take a degree to know something, it takes reading. Personal study. What do you think Dr. Brown has done for the last 25 years since retiring from director of Research institutions and S&T studies and other positions in the military? He's read, researched, and studied the "experts" in all fields related to Creation Science, including astronomy, geology, molecular biology, physics, and a host of others, many experts of which are staunch evolutionists, yet he finds proof for creation in even their findings.

I don't mean to be a prick on the issue, but I feel very strongly about it. I'm simply a 25 year old research scientist (in the area of computers), and I just gone toe-to-toe with a Doctor from the University of Maryland who's studied many of these thinngs, including cosmology, and he could not explain the existence of so many short period comets, among other points I raised with him. And trust me, I'm hardly comprehensively versed in the area of Creation Science. But this doctor previously (and probably still now) continues to claim that there is no evidence that supports the Biblical story of Creation, because that's the view that's been forced down our throats for so long. I'm telling people that yes, there is evidence that verifies the Biblical events of Genesis (creation and the flood), and that people need to know about them.

"The effects of creation can be studied" Not if whether creation took place is under dispute. Creation is under dispute, don't state that it happened as fact.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) Evolution is under dispute also, what does that matter? We're saying "I believe this to have happened", and then we come and say "well if that happened, then we should expect to see __________". That ___________ is what we're studying, and there's plenty of _________ to study.[reply]

"false" You hit an important point of falsifiability here. Yes, if the house is standing we can conclude that it didn't burn down (although it might have been rebuilt). However, if the house is a pile of rubble and ash, we cannot conclude that Joe was right. He might have seen a different fire that was subsequently put out, or he might have been wrong about the date. Science does not ever state anything as fact, merely as fitting the available data, so your forest fire example is false.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) No the forest fire example is not false, we can put a somewhat accurate date on a forest fire based on known growth rates of forest plants. We can't get 100% accurate, but we can make a pretty close estimate. The same with certain topics in creation.[reply]

"if the earth was created recently" Yes, we would expect to see evidence of that. You're absolutely right. That a mechanical engineer far outside his area of expertise has supposedly found such evidence, evidence that would stand up to scientific peer review and scrutiny, is incredible.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) There you go again... "He's a mechanical engineer by degree, therefore he's not qualified to understand the vast workings of the cosmos and other topics related to the earth and universe..." Give me a freaking break. This man is more qualified than the vast majority of PhD's that come out of the best universities in the country. YOU spend over 40 hours a week for 25 years of your life reading from the experts and studying a set of topics (AND how they're related, which most specialists don't do), and tell me that you aren't qualified on the topic. Not to mention he REFERENCES every single one of those experts for every single one of his predictions and theories.[reply]

"A number of observances" Yes, it is POV. 'Point' suggests that these observances are actively promoting YEC. According to creationists, the observational evidence points toward YEC. Or, The observed evidence might allow for YEC.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) Exactly, the scientific observances we see match up with what would be expected for recent creation.[reply]

"Evolutionary scientists have tried countless times" There is no such thing as an evolutionary scientist, and your use of this term shows your bias or narrow reference frame. We do have astrophycisists and astronomers, none of whom seem to share your objections. Perhaps none of them have found this topic interesting enough to write a book about, especially a book for laymen. Please understand that a great number of people (crackpots maybe) have 'theories' they'd like science to prove wrong (Prove me wrong, eh, eh). The fact is that very few scientists have the time or inclination to waste their time on deflecting questions from ignorant people. A number of people still claim that the Moon should be covered in a kilometre thick layer of dusk, making landing on it impossible.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) And do you know why they believed that it should be covered in a kilmeter of dust? Because of the faulty presupposition that the moon has been around for billions of years, they believed that all the space dust settling on it for so long would create that thick of a layer of dust. Unfortunately for them (but fortunately for the astronauts), the layer of dust was approximately as much dust as should settle there in a couple thousand years.[reply]

"It's well referenced" Note that these references all seem to be from decades past. Is it not conceivable that the author (Brown) used outdated sources, or wrote his book a long time ago? Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan, one of his sources, simply state that we have never observed our sun catching a comet, not that it is improbable. I'll note that neither of these authors is convinced by this point that standard cosmology is false.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) I believe the current edition in print is his 7th edition, and I believe he's working on the 8th edition as we speak. Being "old" does not make an observation wrong, it simply means that he may have been using that reference since the book first came out, and never updated it, or it may mean that nobody has made observations relating to that specific topic because someone like Carl Sagan already observed it years ago.[reply]

Note the difference in language in your sources: "Using current standard models for the formation of comets", "No comet has ever been observed"

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) What's the problem with the language? Those two quotes of my references that you took out of context are dealing with two different things. One is stating that the current understanding (aka the magical "oort cloud") should have resulted in a significant number of hyperbolic comets being observed. The second states that no hyperbolic comet has ever been observed to go from a hyperbolic comet to a long, intermediate, or short period comet. Assuming we've only been watching the skies for 6000 years, let's assume that 6001 years ago, a hyperbolic comet did enter the solar system and become a parabolic or elliptical-orbit comet. That makes the average once per 6001 years. Heck, let's say 10 of them did. That makes one per 600 years. That still doesn't explain the number of short period comets, let alone the long and intermediate range comets.[reply]

"It is a scientific fact" There is no such thing as fact within the realm of science. And on what do base this 'fact'? You do realise that we don't see even a tiny percentage of the goings on in our own solar system, don't you? Even asuming most comets are destroyed, they could be collected by the thousands as we speak. I could imagine a single stellar object breaking up, forming hundreds, in not thousands, at once. There, .. an explanation that doesn't call on supernatural intervention. The supernatural can be used to explain everything, which is why actual science can't use it to explain anything.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) Oh, sure, one single object broke up and formed all the short period comets we have in existence today, AND all the intermediate period, AND all the long period. Except that 93% of short period comets have prograde orbits (leaving 7% in retrograde) with a VERY low angle of inclination to Earth's orbital plane, 70% of intermediate period comets have prograde orbits (30% in retrograde) with a mostly random angle of inclination to Earth's orbital plane, and 47% of long period comets having prograde orbits (53% having retrograde) orbits, again with a random angle of inclination to Earth's orbital plane. I'm SO sure that a single object entered our solar system and caused THAT to happen. Even a small series of objects can't account for such a random arrangement. If they all DID have such a correlation, scientists long ago would have concluded that an extremely large comet broke up, or some other extremely large object.[reply]

"I don't mean to be a prick on the issue" Yes, you do seem to feel very strongly about this issue. You make several logical fallacies though, including false dichotomy and you raise the God of the gaps argument. If standard science can't explain it, well, God must have been responsible. It just doesn't work like that.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) No, I've shown, and can show other ways how the Bible (what I believe God said happened) and its events account for a large amount of things that we see today.[reply]

Stumping a doctor is not hard to do. He has probably never connected the story of creation to his day to day work, and has never had to explain the problems with your concepts. I might as well ask you to explain te me, how its possible that you're not from Bern, Switzerland. You probably have little factual information about that city handy, and would be hard pressed to present an air tight case, on the spot.

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) This doctor was a self-proclaimed expert, and he spoke with the knowledge that the average doctor I've talked to does not. He's debated with plenty of people before on this topic, and certainly knows plenty of info on the subject.[reply]

You suggest that there is evidence. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you (and the ID/CS movement). Exponents of alternative thought are no longer persecuted in the Western world, but you can't expect people to agree with you without evidence. If evidence exists, and can withstand scientific scrutiny, then so be it. But this book was not peer reviewed, and not written by a professional in his field. No-one will take his arguments seriously, and they shouldn't, not unless he can prove his assertions, at which point not a scientist in the world would doubt them.

And again, this 'short lived comet' argument is not a main argument of creationists, so it does not deserve to be explained in detail. -- Ec5618 08:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Barwick 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC) The burden of proof is on EVERYONE. Evolution and Creation. Evolution has just as much it needs to explain as creation, and yet we go around teaching evolution as if it is THE answer to how we got here, yet there's no proof. The only thing people can do is observe microevolution (changes within genes that are already in existence in a being, such as a bacteria having on/off certain genes to make it immune or susceptible to certain antibiotics), and extrapolate the data out. They can play with the fossil record and say it looks like simple things are below more complex things, and conclude that the more complex things didn't exist until after the simple things died off.[reply]

They can try any number of things, but science can also explain exactly why larger things (believed to be more complex than smaller things) are higher up in the fossil record and sedimentary layers. Dr. Brown again explains this in his book in the section on liquefaction, a little understood (understood by few people that is) phenomenon.

Creation similarly can have the same things going for it. Just like people do with evolution, we can make an observation today, create a hypothesis, and expect to see certain things in our environment, universe, and even within ourselves. Similarly, we can look at the Bible and see things that human beings would have absolutely NO means of knowing at that time, test and observe them, and if we see a strong trend of these observations written in the Bible being true, then we can conclude that there is something more to the book than just the average human being. Whether or not that is God is something else to be decided, but through study, we can come to the point where we conclude that even the best, most knowledgable human being could not have come up with the things in the Bible, and therefore the arguments made in it about OTHER things we cannot possibly know (like Creation) just may be right. Can we scientifically prove it? No, but we can have a pretty darn good idea.

I think it best to leave those who go toe-to-toe with a cosmologist over planetary science to themselves. Joshuaschroeder 09:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Berwick: The "Moon dust" argument has been defunct since the early 1960's, when a faulty estimate was corrected. And your comet argument is obsolete too: astronomers have now observed many objects in the Kuiper Belt (now considered to be the primary source of short-term comets), and there never was a need for them to be replenished by hyperbolic extrasolar comets. A little research on TalkOrigins would have revealed this, and you could also have brought this up on a discussion forum (such as the Evolution/Creation section of www.iidb.org) rather than attempting to use this page for that purpose.

Err, im not sure who's saying what since there's some un-signed comments, but whoever the last person was, I too agree that you should check out talkorigins Berwick. There's like this ultimate list of all top of the line evolutionary attacks against Creationism and creationist arguments, some of which actually sounded very interesting, though to me, that's because I thought many of them had extraordinary fundamental errors. But if you look at what they have to say, since they represent like the epitome of all modern day evolutionary theory or something, you can much more reliably address the subject of evolution. Personally, reading some of that archive, i've come to realize I should never of been worried about evolutionary theory really being very accurate on many of its fundamental assumptions, but that's just me, the point is, try to look at talkorigins some and you'll be able to get a better understand of the modern day, accepted theory...and maybe be able to use some better attacks on evolutionary theory. Homestarmy 20:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Needs more creation myths

This page only mentions the Judeo-Christian creation myths. That's not remotely fair. There's so many other good ones out there, like from various Native American tribes, Hindus, Shinto, African, etc. --Cyde 00:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gee there's a brilliant message... "I'll completely ignore the fact that scientific evidence supports the Judeo-Christian account of creation, and call it a myth because it makes me feel good and smart. Durrrrh..."

On this note, can we just delete stupid comments like the one Cyde just put in here (and consequently my stupid resposne?) Is there a process for this, or just "you're an idiot, go away" and delete it?

Barwick 03:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The best predictor of something not being science is a creationist calling it 'scientific'. I second the motion for expansion to include other creation myths.

Tenshu 21:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think maybe only in a small section or in the intro, because the word "creationism" is usually used in a context that implies the Abrahamic tradition. And, creationism and creation myths are not quite equivalent; "creationism" is also usually used in a context that opposes it to scientific accounts of natural/cosmological history, rather than as an isolated belief to be discussed without some wider context. --Tothebarricades 00:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One, other creation stories are included under origin beliefs.

Two, you can always edit/delete your own responses here on Wikipedia talk, but in general it is considered bad form to edit other people's responses (unless you're clarifyimg their position because of a syntax or spelling error, for example).

Joshuaschroeder

Doesn't the Judeo-Christian concept of Creationism pretty much represent the majority PoV anyway? Homestarmy 20:11, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The majority POV regarding creationism yes -- not the majority POV in general. --ScienceApologist 00:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I meant for creationism, sorry if I wasn't clear :/. the article does mention other beliefs on the origins of the earth anyway, right? Homestarmy 00:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

publication

would you like to publish this article? -- Zondor 22:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Don't disrupt the wiki. --FOo 01:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One of the problems for Creationism is that outside of the Judic religions it makes no sense where as science trys to be culturally nutral (sorry about spelling but im deslexic)

POV

This page's editors are tolerating a blatant POV (as well as a duplicate link, which is against Wikipedia policy). My recent edit to bring it into conformity with Wikipedia policy was instantly reverted by User:Duncharris Not wishing to get into an edit war, I am instead placing a tag on the section. Pollinator 20:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The link is to talk.origins list of creationist websites. Whatever you think about talk.origins archive, the page that it refers to is neutral — it just lists the sites and does a job much better than we ever could since WP:NOT a link farm. That they encourage people to visit such sites and familiarise themselves with them speaks volumes when the creationists don't do similar. Please remember NPOV#Pseudoscience; the mainstream point of view has priority. — Dunc|☺ 20:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Don't distort the issue. It's not one of priority, pseudoscience or whatever. I'm not arguing for creationism, (which has several variations). I'm arguing violations of Wikipedia NPOV, as well as double linking. Pollinator 01:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Given the above by Duncharis, where is your NPOV argument? --Stephan Schulz 10:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

His beef is that the TO archive is already linked, but given the subsequent links are to a different and very relevant section, its OK. --JPotter 23:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rossnixon's advocacy

Rossnixon apparently wants to see qualifiers to the scientific evidence portions of the article. This is wholly inappropriate. The scientific evidence against YEC is obvious to even those who are YEC advocates. That they reject the evidence is a well-known fact. To claim the evidence is an "allegation" only is to deny the fact that scientific evidence is neutral with respect to point-of-view. This is a non-negotiable feature of science. Yes, the evidence against YEC is plain and no, this article does not demand the reader accept it because the reader could choose to reject science (which is indeed what YEC does). -ScienceApologist 13:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence against YEC is inconclusive. It can be interpreted several ways. One cannot repeat in the laboratory things that happened in the distant past. You can only simulate something similar and hope you got it right. Evidence is not interpreted in a neutral fashion - it is always "tainted" by one's existing "world view".

My original point was that - I do not believe in Creationism despite scientific evidence against it. I believe in Creationism partly because of my faith and partly because of the inadequacy of the scientific evidence for evolution RossNixon 10:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In reference to your recent edit "it is the phenomena that are natural, not the explanation" I have to disagree. Both the phenomena and explanations are natural, because the alternative is supernatural - and you will not find any scientific explanations that refer to supernatural causes. That is the whole root of naturalism - that natural effects have natural causes. I think this may be a difference of semantics, with you defining natural as "normal" or "intuitive" or something. Such a minor issue I didn't want to make a new topic on it. --Ignignot 22:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please see a discussion of why it is the phenomena and not the explanation that is natural here. In short, explanations are scientific, phenomena are natural. The explanations are not "natural" unless you consider everything made by humanity to be "natural". Rather they are actually artificial explanations (man-made) for purely natural phenomena. This is a fundmental point in the philosophy of science. What makes a phenomena "natural" is that it can be investigated empirically through the scientific method, but the explanations themselves are not "natural". --ScienceApologist 22:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

After reading the discussion, I don't think the point was made that the other interpretation of natural is "not supernatural". Perhaps it is inappropriate to view scientific explanations in the natural / supernatural dichotomy. However, it might be possible to rephrase the sentence to say that science does not use supernatural explanations to explain natural phenomena, which I think would satisfy both of us. --Ignignot 15:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fair assessment. Although "supernatural" discussions are included elsewhere in the article, if you see a good way to incorporate them there, that would be fine. --ScienceApologist 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Randis offer

Challenge info: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html (important passages in bold)

Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted. Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered. We consult competent statisticians when an evaluation of the results, or experiment design, is required. We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if you provide us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded.

AND

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc

So you actually CANNOT win money by proving ID if you arent able to convince God as participant (unlikely). The million dollar challenge is a false killer argument in this case.

Finding Darwin's God

From Kenneth R. Miller Finding Darwin's God; 1999; ISBN: 0060175931; p.xi:

Yet evolution also remains a point of concern and controversy, because it deals with the greatest of all mysteries, our own origins, and our human place in nature. The institutions of religion had once claimed solutions to these mysteries as their own, and the notion that natural science might find its own answers to such questions stirred immediate conflict. Darwin felt the conflict clearly, and attached three quotations to serve as epigraphs to the later editions of Origin. Each tells us something about Darwin's view of the proper relationship between religion and natural science, but the third, from Francis Bacon's Advancement of Learning, is particularly revealing:

To conclude, therefore, let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well-studied in the book of G-D's word, or in the book of G-D's works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavor an endless progress or proficiency in both.

In no small way, my purpose in writing this book has been to argue that Darwin chose exceptionally well when he selected this quotation.

Two World Views

From Kenneth R. Miller Finding Darwin's God; p. 173

Ken, you're intelligent, you're well-meaning, and you're energetic. But you are also young, and you don't realize what's at stake. In a question of such importance, scientific data aren't the ultimate authority. Even you know that science is wrong sometimes."

Indeed I did. Henry M. Morris continued so that I could get a feeling for what that ultimate authority was. "Scripture tells us what the right conclusion is. And if science, momentarily, doesn't agree with it, then we have to keep working until we get the right answer. But I have no doubts as to what that answer will be." Morris then excused himself, and I was left to ponder what he had said. I had sat down thinking the man a charlatan, but I left appreciating the depth, the power, and the sincerity of his convictions. Nonetheless, however one might admire Morris's strength of character, convictions that allow science to be bent beyond recognition are not merely unjustified—they are dangerous in the intellectual and even in the moral sense, because they corrupt and compromise the integrity of human reason.

My impromptu breakfast with Morris taught me an important lesson—the appeal of creationism is emotional {Peace-of-Mind invested in God}, not scientific; {Two World Views}. I might be able to lay out graphs and charts and diagrams, to cite laboratory experiments and field observations, to describe the details of one evolutionary sequence after another, but to the true believers of creationism, these would all be sound and fury, signifying nothing. The truth would always be some where else.

Yesselman 01:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

spelling

I have changed Day-age creationism into Day–age creationism once. It seemed more correct to me with the en-dash. What do you think? --Rtc 21:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems kinda irrelevant, but I don't see a problem with it. Homestarmy 00:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

question

"The major Jewish denominations, including many Orthodox Jewish groups, accept evolutionary creationism or theistic evolution." --can this be verified?Akerensky99 05:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 502: / Line 502: @@
 Seems kinda irrelevant, but I don't see a problem with it. [[User:Homestarmy|Homestarmy]] 00:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
+== question ==
+"The major Jewish denominations, including many Orthodox Jewish groups, accept evolutionary creationism or theistic evolution." --can this be verified?[[User:Akerensky99|Akerensky99]] 05:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)