Talk:Israel: Difference between revisions

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	Israel is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 8, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed September 4, 2007 Peer review Reviewed September 30, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted June 23, 2010 Featured article review Demoted April 20, 2012 Peer review Reviewed Current status: Former featured article

This  level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Israel Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Jewish history Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Palestine Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Judaism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry articles WikiProject Countries to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy. Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region. Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess. Asia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject AsiaTemplate:WikiProject AsiaAsia articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. 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You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Shabi, Rachel; Kiss, Jemima (18 August 2010). "Wikipedia editing courses launched by Zionist groups". The Guardian. Retrieved 25 December 2012.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) "Topics that spark Wikipedia 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013.

Readerships and mentions

This article has been viewed enough times to make it onto the all-time Top 100 list. It has had 74 million views since December 2007. This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2023, when it received 13,344,140 views. This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 13 times. The weeks in which this happened: July 13 to 19, 2014 July 20 to 26, 2014 July 27 to August 2, 2014 August 3 to 9, 2014 July 2 to 8, 2017 December 3 to 9, 2017 May 9 to 15, 2021 May 16 to 22, 2021 October 8 to 14, 2023 October 15 to 21, 2023 October 22 to 28, 2023 October 29 to November 4, 2023 November 5 to 11, 2023 Section sizes Section size for Israel (54 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 35,495 35,495 Etymology 4,777 4,777 History 85 142,880 Prehistory 2,842 2,842 Bronze and Iron Ages 15,882 15,882 Classical antiquity 12,458 12,458 Late antiquity and the medieval period 10,193 10,193 Modern period and the emergence of Zionism 12,966 12,966 British Mandate for Palestine 22,638 22,638 State of Israel 69 65,816 Establishment and early years 11,884 11,884 Arab–Israeli conflict 17,190 17,190 Peace process 14,518 14,518 21st century 22,155 22,155 Geography 8,864 18,096 Tectonics and seismicity 3,375 3,375 Climate 5,857 5,857 Government and politics 11,159 92,579 Administrative divisions 4,107 4,107 Israeli citizenship law 2,376 2,376 Israeli-occupied territories 17,015 39,418 International opinion 14,706 14,706 Apartheid 7,697 7,697 Foreign relations 13,460 19,636 Foreign aid 6,176 6,176 Military 12,372 12,372 Legal system 3,511 3,511 Economy 9,600 35,355 Science and technology 14,848 14,848 Energy 3,223 3,223 Transport 3,480 3,480 Tourism 2,274 2,274 Real estate 1,930 1,930 Demographics 19,590 42,743 Major urban areas 2,721 2,721 Language 6,228 6,228 Religion 6,036 6,036 Education 8,168 8,168 Culture 2,495 30,292 Literature 2,474 2,474 Music and dance 3,289 3,289 Cinema and theatre 1,599 1,599 Arts 3,152 3,152 Architecture 3,381 3,381 Media 4,304 4,304 Museums 2,786 2,786 Cuisine 2,331 2,331 Sports 4,481 4,481 See also 77 77 References 15 10,125 Notes 47 47 Citations 29 29 Sources 10,034 10,034 External links 1,725 1,725 Total 414,144 414,144

view · edit Frequently asked questions Why is Jerusalem listed as Israel's capital in the infobox? Israel declares Jerusalem to be its capital, and has its seat of government there. However, the lack of international recognition is notable, hence the subtext was added "(limited recognition)" as the result of this RfC. For further information see Status of Jerusalem.

@DMH223344: Thanks for your interesting recent additions, they are not exactly within this article's scope however. The history of the state of Israel, like any history of any other state in the world, is about the history of its territory, and the history of that territory is the history of Palestine, not the history of Jews and Zionism in Europe. History of the territory of the state of Israel is that of the Crusaders, and Umayyad, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman caliphates; that of Zahir al-Umar in 1700s who built a proto-state in Palestine/Land of Israel, constructed Acre's fortifications, re-established Haifa, and made the region a major trading center of soap and cotton to Europe; that of the 1834 Peasants' revolt in Palestine which included Galilee and Jaffa. We should reconfigure our research accordingly, otherwise we risk wasting precious space, and unfilled gaps, with a sociopolitical study of European Jewry. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, what about an abridged version of those additions? DMH223344 (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing your issue is mostly with that full paragraph that was added? DMH223344 (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My issue is long-standing and I have raised it several times here so don't worry; adding further material only worsens the current situation. I think it's outside of Israel's geographic scope and therefore not relevant to the article, not sure where we could move it elsewhere. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The history of and development of zionism is out of scope for an article on the modern state of israel? DMH223344 (talk) 19:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting since Zionism was of course a European idea, which developed in a European context. Is the proposal to just introduce the arrival of Zionist settlers without context for why they came? DMH223344 (talk) 19:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing beyond a sentence as simple as "amid rising European antisemitism", and other directly related things such as the 1882 Aliyah, Herzl's 1893 book, Zionist congress choices, in a concise way. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think I can accept that. I would clarify that antisemitism is not seen in RS as the main driver for the development of Zionism. From Avineri: [Zionism] was a response to the challenges of liberalism and nationalism much more than a response merely to anti-Semitism DMH223344 (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's one guy's view, but is that the mainstream view? Levivich (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say so, although if you have sources which I should check please share (no need to fish out specific quotes unless you want to):

Shimoni: "In sum, itmay therefore be said that antisemitism may be regarded as acritical causal factor in the ignition of Zionism as a movement butis inadequate as a causal explanation of Zionism's genesis."

sternhell: "Liberal individualism suddenly appeared as a real threat to the continued Jewish people's existence as a homogenous and autonomous unit. Thus, Zionism was not only a reaction to increasing insecurity but also a Herderian, not to say tribal, response to the challenge of emancipation."

shlaim: "Modern Zionism was a phenomenon of the late nineteenth-century Europe. It had its roots in the failure of Jewish efforts to become assimilated in Western society, in the intensification of antisemitism in Europe, and in the parallel and not unrelated upsurge of nationalism. If nationalism posed a problem to the Jews by identifying them as an alien and unwanted minority, it also suggested a solution: self-determination for the Jews in a state of their own in which they would constitute a majority."

Stanislawski: "But once more, it is essential to understand that the fundamental cause of the emergence of modern Jewish nationalism was the rise, on the part of Jews themselves, of new ideologies that applied the basic tenets of modern nationalism to the Jews, and not a response to persecution."

Rabkin: "The historians of Zionism emphasize that the founders of the movement were assimilated Jews. Avineri writes:" at which point he quotes the avineri quote I shared above along with it's surrounding context

Although possibly this is too detailed for an article on Israel rather than on Zionism. DMH223344 (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to pick nits, but it seems that, e.g., Shimoni, Sternhell, and Shlaim (say that three times fast!) are saying antisemitism was not the only factor, but it was still a main factor, at least equal to nationalism and liberalism. Avineri, Stanislawski, and I guess Rabkin, are saying it was a less important factor than nationalism and liberalism. I think it would be OK for our purposes in this article to not have to say which were the more important factors, and just list them as causes/factors (antisemitism, nationalism, liberalism). Levivich (talk) 02:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yup i agree, i never meant to say that antisemitism wasnt important. DMH223344 (talk) 15:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with this approach. What happened in Europe in the 19th/20th century is far more relevant to the history of the modern state of Israel than what happened in Palestine in the middle ages. The history of Israel is not, in my view, a history of the region, but rather a history of the state. By way of example, the history of the United States is not the history of North America, and when I look at United States#History, it seems to be the right balance between pre-colonization and post-colonization history. Same with Mexico#History. What the English are to US history, what the Spanish are to Mexican history, is what Zionists are to Israeli history: they're the settlers that created the state. They're basically the beginning of the history of the state. Levivich (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What happened in Europe in the 19th/20th century is far more relevant to the history of the modern state of Israel than what happened in Palestine in the middle ages. Agree 100%. The history of modern Israel basically begins in Europe in the 19th century. nableezy - 19:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, maybe I'm just not looking at enough sources, but I havent seen Zahir al-Umar or other of the topics discussed in any history of the state of israel DMH223344 (talk) 20:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, history of the state. What is a state? A state are a set of institutions governing a geographic area. What is the history of these institutions and geographic area? Few of them can be traced directly to Europe. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The history of the state of Israel is what sources say the history of the state of Israel, and that largely begins with the Zionist movement in Europe in the 19th century. We have an article on the geographic area, it isn’t this one. nableezy - 14:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you demonstrate how RS say so, excluding Rubin's and other not very subjective works? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few sources:

• Routledge Handbook on Contemporary Israel (2022) TOC, Part One: Historical Overview, begins with Chapter 1: "Zionism Between Despair and Hope"
• Routledge Handbook of Modern Israel (2013) TOC (PDF), begins even later, in 1948
• Barry Rubin's Israel: An Introduction (2012) Chapter 2: History begins 4,000 years ago, and gets to Zionism by the end of the next page

I prefer Rubin's approach: a brief pre-history, then Zionism. Levivich (talk) 05:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barry Rubin is an Israeli writer who is uncritical about Zionism, I wouldn't prioritize a single work and especially not his work. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which sources do not treat the history of zionism as essential to the history of the modern state of israel? DMH223344 (talk) 15:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with some other editors that this paragraph provides too much detail that is not directly related to the topic of this article.

Having said that, I think that the dichotomy land vs people is misleading. Consider the History of Turkey article. It includes information about the territory before the establishment of the current state (duplicated to some extent in other articles like Byzantine Empire) and also about the early history of the Turkic people that took place mostly in Central Asia.

Likewise, both the history of the territory and the reasons for the increased immigration in the 19th century belong to this article. Naturally, other articles like the History of Palestine or History of Zionism would cover these topics in greater detail, which is perfectly fine. Alaexis_¿question? 20:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, we should be following what RS do. I'm not sure, but I would guess that RS on the history of turkey discuss the history of the land itself in some depth. For the most part, histories of the state of israel are about the history of zionism starting in the late 19th century DMH223344 (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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There misleading information given by you Israel captain is Tel Aviv not 2409:4080:E8E:2F84:AE70:59BF:F7DE:B7F8 (talk) 08:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

•  Not done It's not clear what change you are seeking. Changes should be proposed in a "change X text to Y text" format. 331dot (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Change "Israel's proclaimed capital is in Jerusalem" to "Israel's capital is in Jerusalem" Other countries dont use the word proclaimed...they state the capital of the country. The same wording should apply here. Truthteller30000 (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Tthe present wording is the result of deliberate consensus you can find with the archive navigation at the top of the page. Remsense ‥ 论 01:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change the term proclaimed to “their capital is”. especially since Israeli control of west Jerusalem is not as disputed Aki123465 (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just as with the above comment, the current wording was the result of extensive discussion. You don't yet have 500 edits so you can't reopen that discussion. 331dot (talk) 21:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sorry Aki123465 (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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"Arabic" is also an official language of Israel Mollye5299 (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not. It has 'special status'. An English translation of the Basic Law is available via the Wikipedia article. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 22:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that Israel has hosted Eurovision twice, but actually Israel has hosted three times: in 1979, 1999 and 2019. 2A02:27B0:5503:A9F0:11E6:17DE:B52B:AFFA (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I was wondering if you would be able to add as a source to this line: Membership of the Knesset is based on proportional representation of political parties,[327][better source needed] with a 3.25% electoral threshold, which in practice has resulted in coalition governments. for the better source the book הסיפורה של הפוליטקה הישראלית by עמית סיגל. Thank you! :) Ivri.anochi (talk) 02:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Andre🚐 02:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the delivery of the ICJ's advisory opinion in July, should the accusation of Israeli Apartheid be listed in the opening section? JPHC2003 (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. Andre🚐 20:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? AnarchistHistory (talk) 00:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section is a summary of the most salient points about the topic, not a place for recent news. Andre🚐 00:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is the ICJ categorical condemnation not salient enough to be mentioned? Dragonsaige (talk) 08:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would have to be one of the most important events in the entirety of everything about Israel, which it isn't. See WP:WEIGHT. That probably seems rather important to us in 2024 due to WP:RECENTISM. See WP:NOTNEWS Andre🚐 08:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible the merit of its inclusion will be clear in the future, once it is integrated into the historical record. Remsense ‥ 论 08:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear that at this point the ICJ has indicated a breach of Article 3 of ICERD, including "racial segregation and apartheid" without specifying which and developments from CERD/UNGA are awaited. This is actually an important development but no point in discussing it on this page just yet. Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is an entire section about apartheid in the body, and this should be summarized and reflected in the lede without censorship. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article says "Israel's practices in its occupation of the Palestinian territories have drawn sustained international criticism along with accusations that it has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people from human rights organizations and United Nations officials."

"Crimes against humanity" (which I just wikilinked in the article) includes apartheid so it is mentioned in the lead indirectly. If at some point, a UN body specifically asserts apartheid (in addition to all the others that have asserted it), then I think there is a case for mentioning it in the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Update religion sections for 2023 Source: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/547499-ISRAEL-2023-INTERNATIONAL-RELIGIOUS-FREEDOM-REPORT.pdf Hasancelikbilek35 (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Rainsage (talk) 07:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update religion demographics to 2023 data using the provided source, which is State Dept IRFR, which cites Israel's Bureau of Statistics. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Since the death toll of Israeli civilians is on the page, i feel as if it is only right to have the Palestinian death toll stated on the page as well. Where it states that approximately 1300 Israeli civilians were murdered, it must also state that approximately 41000 Palestinians were murdered in the conflict as of October 3rd 2024 since it makes light of a one sided description. Source: https://abcnews.go.com/International/israel-hamas-war-death-toll-1-year/story?id=114458943 AgonShqiptani (talk) 13:17, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: That section is not about the war as a whole, it's about the events that occurred on October 7 2023 – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]