Talk:Pod (The Breeders album)

	Pod (The Breeders album) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Article milestones Date Process Result October 9, 2017 Good article nominee Listed March 9, 2019 Featured article candidate Promoted September 27, 2019 Peer review Reviewed
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Am I the only one who thinks the article should be title "Pod (Breeders album)", sans "the"? I think I might be - how we treat "the" in band names is perhaps the most infamous point of dissent on Wikipedia music articles... Popcornduff (talk) 02:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(This conversation moved from Ceoil's talk page.)

Hi Ceoil and Brandt Luke Zorn. I hope you are both well. Pod's thirtieth anniversary is fast coming up in May, and I'll quite likely consider nominating it for TFA. In the last several months I've come across a few tidbits that could possibly good additions to the article. What do you think about these? Are they good or would they break the current balance of information:

Background:

• [[1]] Joey Santiago: "The way I think Charles saw it, the band made pizzas, not cookies." (I think this is a relatively famous quote related to Deal's songs being rejected for the Pixies. We already use other info from this source in the article.)
• [[2]] "Black... says he doesn't care much for the albums Deal recorded with Breeders and her new group, the Amps. 'It's just personal taste, that's all,' Black said. 'I honestly don't listen to female singers much. I'm very picky about the women I listen to. I think everybody enjoys listening to singers of their same sex more. It goes back to when you're a kid and dream of being that singer or being in that band. You don't do it if you're listening to a singer of the other sex. I guess I still haven't gotten over that.' (The fact that he admits not caring for Deal's music could easily be taken as extra context in the discussion of her songs being rejected for the Pixies... although all this about men vs. women singers kind of goes off in a different direction.)

Legacy:

• [[3]] "Kim describes [Pod] as 'just magic'." (This could go with the part where Wiggs and Donnelly are praising the album.)

Any thoughts about any of this? Moisejp (talk) 04:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Moisejp! A 30th anniversary TFA would be cool. (Quick aside: Should this convo be on the article's talk page instead? No biggie, but I started thinking about that after writing out my response and realizing it may clunk up Ceoil's talk page.) Here's my feedback:

• I think the "pizzas, not cookies" bit could be a good fit for the paragraph starting "Some journalists have speculated..." After rereading that graf, what it really needs tbh is greater indication of Deal's relative standing within the Pixies for the benefit of readers who have never heard of these bands at all. What's there on the page now suggests—unless one already knows better—that Deal had been totally unable to contribute to the Pixies. The subtler reality makes her frustration more concrete: she had gotten to contribute a few of her songs, but one of those was "Gigantic", which became a single and is universally regarded as one of their best and most significant songs. (You could even consider weaving in Cobain's perspective: "I wish Kim was allowed to write more songs for the Pixies, because 'Gigantic' is the best Pixies song and Kim wrote it".) It changes the situation from an injustice in the abstract (well, shouldn't Deal have been given a chance?) to an injustice on the merits (wait a minute, you're telling me Deal was shut out even after writing one of the band's best and most popular songs?!). It's like if George Harrison had dropped "Here Comes the Sun" on Help!, only to have a decreasing role in the Beatles' songwriting thereafter. Anyway, the "pizzas, not cookies" line gels with what's already attributed from Santiago. It's a perfectly diplomatic/even-handed statement from him and helps illustrate the nature of the Pixies' creative control conflict.
• Quick thought: "complained angrily about Francis singing almost all of the band's songs" — should this be ...about Francis singing lead vocals on almost all of the band's songs"? Wondering because idk what point in time that interview was and I'm not that familiar with the Pixies' music after Doolittle, but up til then she sang a lot. Was she upset about getting shut out of singing entirely at some point, or is this about lead vocals?
• I think a bit about Black dissing Pod and the Breeders would be a good bookend tying up the Pixies backstory stuff. I would quote the phrase "personal taste" and then, maybe as a blockquote, "I honestly don't listen to female singers much. I'm very picky about the women I listen to. I think everybody enjoys listening to singers of their same sex more. It goes back to when you're a kid and dream of being that singer or being in that band." That quote is a dose of either idiosyncratic insight or bizarre egocentrism (or both), and in any case too juicy to pass up, plus obviously it's highly compatible with the common feminist reading of Deal's life story. It could go in "Background" but I think "Legacy" might work better.
• "Just magic" is good and would fit seamlessly where you say. —BLZ · talk 21:44, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brandt Luke Zorn, thanks a lot for your input! I've added "just magic", "pizzas, not cookies", "personal taste", and "lead vocals". I'm not at all against your idea about adding more background re. "Gigantic", etc. but I think I'd need more concrete ideas before tackling such a medium-big change. If you happen to have more ideas or want to take a stab at doing a first draft, that could be helpful, although I can try to have a think about it too. I'm also open to adding the longer quote about not listening to female singers much. I'm not exactly sure how it would fit as a block quote (I mean whether its significance would be clear with regards to the surrounding text), especially in the Legacy section, but I'm happy to try it out. Another idea could be to simply put the quote in a footnote after "personal taste". Thanks again a lot for your help! Moisejp (talk) 04:49, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]