Talk:Dnieper Balts

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 17:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• ... that the Dnieper river basin was home to the now-extinct Dnieper Balts? Source: "Dniẽpro báltai, Dniepro aukštutiniame baseine ir gretimose žemėse iš seno gyvenusios gentys, šnekėjusios baltų kalbomis." (translated: Dniepr Balts were the Baltic-speaking tribes that were longtime inhabitants of the upper Dnieper basin and the adjacent lands.) ~ Zigmas Zinkevičius, [1] (in Lithuanian)
  • ALT1: ... that the now-extinct Dnieper Balts inhabited the Dnieper river basin? Source: "Dniẽpro báltai, Dniepro aukštutiniame baseine ir gretimose žemėse iš seno gyvenusios gentys, šnekėjusios baltų kalbomis." (translated: Dniepr Balts were the Baltic-speaking tribes that were longtime inhabitants of the upper Dnieper basin and the adjacent lands.) ~ Zigmas Zinkevičius, [2] (in Lithuanian)

5x expanded by Cukrakalnis (talk). Self-nominated at 20:11, 13 May 2022 (UTC).[reply]

• Can a new hook be proposed here? The current proposals are a bit technical and my not necessarily be interesting to a broad audience. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Narutolovehinata5, would a better hook be: ** ALT2: ... that Baltic tribes lived in what is now Russia? Source: "Dniẽpro báltai, Dniepro aukštutiniame baseine ir gretimose žemėse iš seno gyvenusios gentys, šnekėjusios baltų kalbomis." (translated: Dnieper Balts were the Baltic-speaking tribes that were longtime inhabitants of the upper Dnieper basin and the adjacent lands.) ~ Zigmas Zinkevičius, [3] (in Lithuanian) --Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Shouldn't they be called Dnieper Balts, Dnieper is the correct name of the river in English after all. Also aren't they the same as Eastern Balts, so I don't know if it's proper to call them a subgroup of the Eastern Balts Marcelus (talk) 08:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changed Dniepr -> Dnieper because that is the name used for the river in the English wikipedia, although variations are possible. As for Eastern Balts, that group is not the same as Dnieper Balts. Lithuanians and Latvians are also Eastern Balts, so equating Eastern Balts with Dnieper Balts is factually inaccurate.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cukrakalnis: I get your point, I assumed that Lithuanians and Latvians are central Balts (that's a division I am familiar with). Are Golyads part/subgroup of Dnieper Balts or separate group? Marcelus (talk) 09:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus: I was thinking of only Western/Eastern Balts. Now that I think of it, because the term "Central Balts" is also rather used in academic literature, it could be a good idea to create an article on it, or write it as a sub-section in an already existing article for clarity. Considering the sentence In the 11th and 12th centuries, almost all the Dnieper Balts, except the Eastern Galindians, were assimilated by the eastern Slavs. in the article Dnieper Balts, it seems as though Eastern Galindians would be a subgroup of Dnieper Balts, although I can't find any source stating that explicitly and clearly.--Cukrakalnis (talk)

@Cukrakalnis: Yeah that's my understanding. And also the reason why I thought Eastern Balts term is more fitting, because Golyads were living quite away from the Dnieper (Protva is a tributary of Oka and Volga, not Dnieper). That's what I found in Endre Bojtár Foreword to the past. A cultural history of the Baltic people (p. 75): On the right side of the Pripet old Slavs were settled. On the south-eastern periphery Balts were in contact with Iranian tribes, and also with Finno-Ugrian groups in the north-east where the Oka merges with the River Moscow. Some conclude from this that the ancestors of the eastern Balts were not engaged in direct communication with the Slavs. They were connected with them through the Baltic dialects which then left their mark on the place names in the basin of the Volga and the Oka, only to vanish later in the ‘Slavic Sea’. These vanished tribes made up the bulk of the Balts, supposedly three quarters. For this reason J. Ochmanski divided the Baltic languages into three rather than the usual two branches: these dialects which vanished were the eastern branch, and the central ones were the Lettish-Lithuanian languages (Ochmanski 1966, 152). In a similar way, V. Sedov also differentiated between western (Prussian, Jatvingian, Galindian, Couronian, Skalvic); central (Lithuanian, Zemaitian, Aukstaitian, Latgalian, Selian, Zemgalian); and the east Balts named Dnieperians. In the latter group the only group or tribe we know of is the Goljad’ (Sedov 1987, 7). Since the eastern branch disappeared it is best to stick to the traditional western-eastern division.Marcelus (talk) 11:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus: Yes, indeed, I also noticed that the Baltic origin of places not in the Dnieper river basin by any definition (Moskva, etc.) are in the article although these locations are rather far from the Dnieper river. It seems that those, who could legitimately be called Oka or even Volga Balts, are just grouped together into Dnieper Balts.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: there are a few hooks I could probably wrangle from the article prose, but it'd be irresponsible to suggest them when they're a part of the many uncited paragraphs. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:33, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is outside my expertise so I'll probably leave the full review to another editor. My only concern was that the original hooks were probably unsuitable and this issue appears to remain unaddressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cukrakalnis, the bulk of the paragraphs in this article are not cited, and the rule of thumb for DYK is one inline citation per paragraph. This nomination will not succeed unless the article inline sourcing is improved. Please let us know when that is done, and try to finish within seven days. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BlueMoonset, I've improved the citing for some paragraphs. Is that sufficient?--Cukrakalnis (talk) 17:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cukrakalnis, I see four "citation needed" markings still. These need to be addressed. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BlueMoonset, I just addressed them.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:45, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Full review needed now that sourcing issues have been addressed. theleekycauldron, might you suggest an ALT hook or two? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:10, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ALT3: ... that the Dnieper Balts might have worshipped bear heads on pillars? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I approve this ALT, thanks theleekycauldron.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: I did a copyedit of the article to remove what I thought was prose that was not in WP:WIKIVOICE. Please review the edits and message me if there are any concerns. QPQ is not necessary because nominator has less than 5 DYK noms. I approve ALT3 (and did not check the others, because I thought ALT3 was the most interesting.) Z1720 (talk) 02:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My tick above didn't move this template to the approve list, so I am re-posting it here to see if it'll move. Z1720 (talk) 15:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]